# Hebrews, Semites, and Jews (ancient history question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 25, 2017, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178 "2017-04-25T01:29:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/21 "2017-04-25T21:39:26Z")
What’s interesting is that the **Sem** itic language group all use the word **Sem** :[ul] [li][Amharic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amharic) - [sm](https://translate.google.com/#en/am/name)[/li][li]Arabic - [isme](https://translate.google.com/#en/ar/name)[/li][li]Hebrew - [shem](https://translate.google.com/#en/iw/name)[/li][li][Maltese](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language) - [isem](https://translate.google.com/#en/mt/Name)[/li][/ul] Since the group was named after the biblical figure **Shem** , who’s name literally means **name** , all the **Sem** itic languages use the name of their language group when saying their word for name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2017, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/22 "2017-04-25T23:13:04Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Captain Amazing: > > Benjamin wasn’t really absorbed, the reason Judah (alone) was the name for the remaining group is because the kings were from the tribe of Judah. Other than Mordechai, did anybody identify themselves as Benaminite post-exilic? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/23 "2017-04-26T10:00:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > … Modern archaeology and anthropology suggests that … the term Hebrew comes from the word “Haibiru/Apiru”, which was used by both ancient Egyptians and Sumerians to refer to a social group in Canaanite society that herded cattle and engaged in mercenary work/raiding and banditry, and that the “Hebrew” tribes are probably descended from that social group. Part of this seems uncontested. Variations of “Haibiru” (with huge resemblance to “Hebrew”) are attested from ancient Sumeria and Egypt’s Middle Kingdom, as well as Hittites, Ugarites, etc. Perhaps it referred to different groups, _but always with a meaning of ‘outsider.’_ Two questions arise: (1) Are “Haibiru” and “Hebrew” the same word? (2) If so, did they refer to the same ethnic group? > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Here is [an article](http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7445-hebrew) from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia on the usage of “Hebrew” for the people. This source implies that “Hebrew” was an ancient word used by both Egyptians and Philistines to refer to the Israelites. > [@](#): > > It would appear from the passages cited that the Israelites were known to other peoples by the name “Hebrews,” and that in the earlier period of their history this name was used by them in contrasting themselves with other nations. This was not their customary or preferred designation of themselves. In the period of prophetic activity preceding the Exile, and in the prophetic, legal, and poetical literatures of the exilic and post-exilic periods, the word does not appear, with the doubtful exception of the passage in Gen. xiv. In the Greek period the ancient use was revived … Based on the two sources cited in this thread it seems _very_ likely that _Haibiru_ and _Hebrew_ are cognates. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/24 "2017-04-26T20:05:06Z")
It does not seem mentioned yet, there are no Jews in the world until the covenant takes place at Sinai. Semite would technically be anyone from the people who spoke semitic language which could consist of several ethic groups of people. Hebrew technically refers to the family/children/tribe of Jacob AKA Israel, grandson of Abraham. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/25 "2017-04-26T20:42:32Z")
The Beastie Boys were almost named _Yo-Semite_. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2017, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/26 "2017-04-26T23:53:54Z")
Captain Amazing: > [@](#): > > Other than Mordechai, did anybody identify themselves as Benaminite post-exilic? Several passages in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah would seem to imply that the Benjaminites retained their tribal identification after the Babylonian exile - see Ezra 1:5, 4:1, 10:9, Nehemiah 11:4, 7-9, 31-36. Also, the book of Chronicles, has a detailed geneology by tribe, Benjamin separate from Judah, the purpose of which, according to many, is to establish the lineage of those who returned from the Babylonian exile. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/27 "2017-04-27T00:02:32Z")
Actually, I was a bit too tentative about my cite from Chronicles - I Chronicles 9:3 makes it pretty clear that it is written post-exile, and that the Benjaminites are distinct from the Judahites as in the Ezra/Nehemiah cites in the post above. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/28 "2017-04-27T01:35:21Z")
I don’t know the book, and I haven’t traced the etymology of the terms, but I can give a high level overview of some of the (_more_ generally accepted) archaeology of the time and place. From a map standpoint, you can view everything as three lines, the Egyptian line (bottom left), the Canaanitic line (in the middle), and the “Other” line (on the top and right). ```auto ________ ______ \ / \ \ / \ \ | | | | | | __ | | | | | ``` The vertical line, in the bottom left, is the Nile river, along which Egypt runs. It spreads out a bit along the Mediterranean (the horizontal bit at the top). The city of [Avaris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaris) is in the junction of the T. The gap between Egypt and the next line is the Sinai peninsula. This was an uninhabited desert at the time. The vertical section across from Egypt is Canaan / Israel-Judah / Israel (depending on time period). At the bottom of Canaan, leading into Sinai, were the [Philistines](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines). Along the top of the curve that leads into Canaan is an area that was mostly controlled by the [Amorites](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorites). Above the Amorites, in Anatolia, were a number of groups (depending on era) including the Hittites, Assyrians, and Akkadians. To the East and South of the Amorites were the Akkadians, Mitanni, Sumerians, Mesopotamians, and Babylonians. In the most ancient of archaeology, it seems that the Philistines, Canaanites, and Amorites were all related Semitic, Canaanitic groups. While they had some gods specific to themselves, they also had many [shared gods](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Canaanite_religion) (El, Baal Hadad, Astarte, etc.) Despite my naming and describing these as three separate groups (Philistines, Canaanites, and Amorites), in many ways that’s a misleading way of handling them. The Amorites, for example, were a coalition between a number of Amorite rulers controlling different city states and kingdoms. The Canaanite regions were probably, similarly divided into many sub-groups with a wide number of leaders. For example, [Ugarit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit) was effectively its own kingdom within “Canaan”. There’s no real reason to call the Philistines separate from Canaan nor the Amorites (nor the Edomites, Moabites, etc.) Overall, the middle line was composed of a wide variety of Canaanitic peoples, divided into dozens or hundreds of independent kingdoms, princedoms, tribes, and coalitions that changed from century to century. The Bible references twelve different tribes, possibly as a reference to some (but almost certainly not all) of these ancient divisions. The Northern chunks of the Canaanitic region were taken over by other groups as time went on. From Biblical mythology, we see Abraham coming from the Amorite regions and this could be a reference to a general Amorite migration West and South which occurred between 2500-1600 BC. But archaeology first shows worship of Yahweh as coming from the Southern tip of the Canaanite region (around 900 BC), and Moses interacted a lot with the Midianites and Kenites, who seem to have been Southern groups. Between ~1800 and ~1500 BC, Avaris at the top of Egypt was controlled by a group called the Hyksos, who seem likely to have been Canaanitic and possibly Amoritic. From the fragmentary data available, it seems like the Amorites were pushed out of the East, gradually. Mostly, they settled North of Canaan, but some continued on and made it all of the way into Egypt, capturing the Northern portion, along the ocean. The Egyptians, eventually kicked them out, then proceeded to take over Canaan (including some of the Amorite areas). They continued to hold it until the Hittites came from the North and took over the region (around 1350 BC). The Assyrians quickly took it over from them and controlled it. At the time in which the Old Testament was first starting to be written, it had been taken over from the Assyrians by the Achaemenid Empire, and the Emperor Cyrus the Great was considered a hero in the Canaanite region for returning a bunch of people that the Assyrians had held hostage in the East (near the home of Zoroastrianism) and funding the construction of the Temple of Jerusalem. Abraham’s tale seems, most likely, to reference the migration of the Amorites. Moses’ escape from Egypt could be a reference to when the Hyksos fled Avaris, or it could reference when Canaan was later freed from Egyptian rule. The idea that Moses interacted with the people in the South (the Midianites and Kenites) could be a reference to the fact that Yahwism does seem to have begun in that area. The conquest of Canaan doesn’t seem to reference anything that we know of from archaeology. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/29 "2017-04-27T10:41:33Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Several passages in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah would seem to imply that the Benjaminites retained their tribal identification after the Babylonian exile - see Ezra 1:5, 4:1, 10:9, Nehemiah 11:4, 7-9, 31-36. Also, the book of Chronicles, has a detailed geneology by tribe, Benjamin separate from Judah, the purpose of which, according to many, is to establish the lineage of those who returned from the Babylonian exile. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/30 "2017-04-27T12:38:19Z")
Interesting analysis, \*\*Sage Rat. \*\* How do the Phoenicians fit in? I know they’re from the Lebanese coast and spoke a language very similar to Hebrew. Were they simply Canaanites with boats? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/31 "2017-04-27T16:57:30Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How do the Phoenicians fit in? I know they’re from the Lebanese coast and spoke a language very similar to Hebrew. Were they simply Canaanites with boats? To my understanding that is exactly who they were. ETA: _The name “Canaanites” (כְּנָעַנִיְם kǎnā‘anīm, כְּנָעַנִי kǎnā‘anī) is attested, many centuries later, as the endonym of the people later known to the Ancient Greeks from c. 500 BC as Phoenicians, and following the emigration of Canaanite speakers to Carthage, was also used as a self-designation by the Punics (chanani) during Late Antiquity._ From wikipedia. ---
**Author:** ![Silver\_lining](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Silver\_lining](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silver_lining)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/32 "2017-04-28T01:47:12Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Please try not to laugh at the inept description to follow. What is comes down to is that I don’t understand, historically, the difference between Semites, Hebrews, and Jews. > > I’m reading a book about ancient history, called _The History of the Ancient World_, by Susan Wise Bauer. It’s pretty good. If I have one complaint, it’s that it is so detailed it’s hard to get the broad strokes of what’s going on. It has helpful maps, but the maps are super zoomed in, to just a few cities at a time, making it difficult to see how everything is related. And the cities change names like most people change socks, so it doesn’t help. > > So Bauer brought up the story of Abraham, and I was like, ‘‘Aha! A biblical thing to sort of give me a point of reference in all this.’’ So as I understand it, the Semites were sort of hanging out in Egypt and were then enslaved, and Abraham led them out into the desert and this is where Judaism was born. So I’m thinking, okay, these are Jewish people. Fast forward some decades (centuries?), Moses gets his hands on the ten commandments, then Moses dies and this other guy takes over (Judah?) and then all twelve tribes return to Jericho, which is, as I understand it, their promised land. But by now, the author is referring to these tribes as Hebrews, and she makes a comment to the effect of the Hebrews taking over Semitic lands when they crash Jericho’s walls. > > And I’m like WTF, I thought these wandering desert people _were_ the Semites. I thought Semite and Jew and Hebrew were essentially the same lineages. After all, we call people anti-Semites if they are racist against Jews. Now I’m only partway through the book, somewhere around 800 BCE, so maybe I’m missing something I haven’t read about yet. But would someone be so kind to explain how these three ethnic groups are related? > > Thanks so much! In my opinion, the Jews were the first major movement to believe in the concept of one god and were disliked for it. Being small in number they overcame Pharaohs, and Romans, which were to dangerous power to be at odds within the times. The odd thing is Jesus himself was a Jew ( his real name you can look up ) and the Mohammed the prophet was said to be a direct demented of Abraham himself, meaning he too was at least part Jewish. The records show Jesus had human parents and later claimed to be the son of god. I’ll leave the religion out, but if true, then god is Jewish. The Jews did not believe him. Muhammad actually tried to covert the Jews, who declined. That is how Islam came to be. Because of these two acts from Jewish decents, anti-semitism was born. Catholicism was a dead virtually religon for decades after Christ’s death. Some Roman adopted it, and then used an older holiday on December 25th. The interesting thing is these old bible stories of building and rivers, many of which have vanished are now viewable from salaries in space or below the ground penetration devices…simply amazing. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/33 "2017-04-28T06:10:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Interesting analysis, \*\*Sage Rat. \*\* > > How do the Phoenicians fit in? I know they’re from the Lebanese coast and spoke a language very similar to Hebrew. Were they simply Canaanites with boats? The Phoenicians, Moabites, Edomites, Arameans, Amonites, etc. are all Canaanites. The Midianites and Kenites may have bridged the gap between the Arabic peoples and the Canaanite peoples, being mostly Arabic but picking up a few deities from the Canaanites. There’s a fair amount of circumstancial evidence that Yahweh, [Qos](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qos_(deity)), and [Dushara](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dushara) were originally the same god, referenced by different names. The Bible directly links Qos and Yahweh, seeming to accept worship of either as a good thing. But we see the remnants of Qos and Dushara among the [Nabateans](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabataeans), who seem likely to have been descendants of the Midianites. But, like most Arabic tribes of the time, their primary gods were female. And, in general, Qos compares more closely to Zeus, Baal Hadad, and Teshub than he does to the male, Arabic gods of the time, so it seems more likely that the Qos god originates was brought into the Arabic region from Canaan, rather than that he was brought into Canaan from the Arabs (which is why I did not include a Midianites/Nabatean line on my map). What evidence we have of [Midianite](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midian) religion would seem to support that their top deities were female. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178/34 "2017-04-28T12:31:31Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > In my opinion, the Jews were the first major movement to believe in the concept of one god and were disliked for it. Being small in number they overcame Pharaohs, and Romans, which were to dangerous power to be at odds within the times. > > The odd thing is Jesus himself was a Jew ( his real name you can look up ) and the Mohammed the prophet was said to be a direct demented of Abraham himself, meaning he too was at least part Jewish. > > The records show Jesus had human parents and later claimed to be the son of god. I’ll leave the religion out, but if true, then god is Jewish. The Jews did not believe him. > > Muhammad actually tried to covert the Jews, who declined. That is how Islam came to be. > > Because of these two acts from Jewish decents, anti-semitism was born. > > Catholicism was a dead virtually religon for decades after Christ’s death. Some Roman adopted it, and then used an older holiday on December 25th. > > The interesting thing is these old bible stories of building and rivers, many of which have vanished are now viewable from salaries in space or below the ground penetration devices…simply amazing. Besides the obvious, and sometimes hilarious, grammatical mistakes, most of this post is incorrect. So little is correct that it would best to just ignore the whole thing, and I don’t have the time or the inclination to go point-by-point to refute the errors. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hebrews-semites-and-jews-ancient-history-question/785178.md?page=1)