# Hee-haw, y'all. The 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415 "2018-11-12T17:52:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 160
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3181 "2020-01-21T01:34:56Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > I’m starting to question whether Sanders is actually aware of what his staff are up to online. Those people like David Sirota, Brie Joy and Nina Turner are running a very mean-spirited campaign as the first vote gets near. Jeff Weaver who was the 2016 campaign manager has a more informal role now too and he was front and center at smearing Hillary in 2016. They’re editing clips out of context about Biden and Warren, one retweeted a post a week ago from a Jacobin writer mocking Buttigieg’s military service as a prop for a political career, and now a newsletter by the campaign is using Trumpian language by saying Biden has a corruption problem. Yet whenever Sanders himself is asked by a reporter he is actually quite complimentary and calls Biden a good friend and never demonstrates such bitterness himself. Well, here’s how I see that. Either he’s too clueless to understand what his staff is up to and is therefore certainly not up to running a country, or he’s fully aware of what they’re doing and wants to appear to keep his hands clean – in which case, he’s a bastard who doesn’t deserve the presidency. One way or the other… is this the guy you want in the job? Not me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3182 "2020-01-21T01:41:38Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Well, here’s how I see that. > > Either he’s too clueless to understand what his staff is up to and is therefore certainly not up to running a country, or he’s fully aware of what they’re doing and wants to appear to keep his hands clean – in which case, he’s a bastard who doesn’t deserve the presidency. > > One way or the other… is this the guy you want in the job? Not me. Actually, the latter quality is exactly the kind of political ruthlessness that I think is probably necessary to win presidential elections today. One must be fluent in dirty politics, but skillful enough to stay above the fray and keep one’s hands clean with plausibly deniability. Hopefully the eventual nominee has this skillset. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3183 "2020-01-21T02:04:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Actually, the latter quality is exactly the kind of political ruthlessness that I think is probably necessary to win presidential elections today. One must be fluent in dirty politics, but skillful enough to stay above the fray and keep one’s hands clean with plausibly deniability. Hopefully the eventual nominee has this skillset. Actually, I think it’s going to backfire on Bernie, as it has on every other Democratic primary candidate who has tried to inartfully dirty up their opponents. Bernie has been no more skillful than Kamala Harris was when she tried it against Biden. You’ll recall how that worked out for her. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3184 "2020-01-21T03:08:01Z")
> [@Boycott](#): > > I’m starting to question whether Sanders is actually aware of what his staff are up to online. Those people like David Sirota, Brie Joy and Nina Turner are running a very mean-spirited campaign as the first vote gets near. Jeff Weaver who was the 2016 campaign manager has a more informal role now too and he was front and center at smearing Hillary in 2016. They’re editing clips out of context about Biden and Warren, one retweeted a post a week ago from a Jacobin writer mocking Buttigieg’s military service as a prop for a political career, and now a newsletter by the campaign is using Trumpian language by saying Biden has a corruption problem. Yet whenever Sanders himself is asked by a reporter he is actually quite complimentary and calls Biden a good friend and never demonstrates such bitterness himself. Where are you seeing this stuff? I follow Bernie on FB and it’s all positive stuff, rarely even mentioning his opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3185 "2020-01-21T03:09:01Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Actually, I think it’s going to backfire on Bernie, as it has on every other Democratic primary candidate who has tried to inartfully dirty up their opponents. Bernie has been no more skillful than Kamala Harris was when she tried it against Biden. You’ll recall how that worked out for her. Well, hopefully that shameful lie Warren told about Sanders last week will drop her out of the race pronto, then. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3186 "2020-01-21T03:20:29Z")
I don’t do Twitter, but I just went and checked Bernie’s feed there, and no personal attacks on rivals there, either. Most of it focuses on his own policies and campaign. A few tweets contrast his policies with Biden’s, but nothing attacking Biden personally. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3187 "2020-01-21T03:20:59Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Where are you seeing this stuff? I follow Bernie on FB and it’s all positive stuff, rarely even mentioning his opponents. It’s on the Twitter feed of those people I’ve mentioned and get retweeted a lot so that’s how I saw it. I don’t use Facebook. The newsletter was a screenshot by a media reporter who presumably subscribed to an email list. > Anyway Sanders has just disavowed the newsletter. > [@](#): > > “It is absolutely not my view that Joe is corrupt in any way. And I’m sorry that that op-ed appeared,” Sanders said. > **[Sanders apologizes to Biden for surrogate's op-ed alleging he has a "big...](https://t.co/O7pL3hefnP?amp=1)** > > "It is absolutely not my view that Joe is corrupt in any way. And I'm sorry that that op-ed appeared," Sanders told CBS News. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3188 "2020-01-21T03:25:22Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > I don’t do Twitter, but I just went and checked Bernie’s feed there, and no personal attacks on rivals there, either. Most of it focuses on his own policies and campaign. A few tweets contrast his policies with Biden’s, but nothing attacking Biden personally. Not Bernie himself. Some of the people who work on his campaign who themselves have a relatively big following on Twitter. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3189 "2020-01-21T03:57:05Z")
Checked Sirota’s feed. Definitely a saltier tone, but no personal attacks. Lots of stuff about Biden’s long record of trying to cut Social Security and Medicare. Many links to multiple videos and articles documenting same. Sounds as though the Biden campaign is trying to avoid debating the issues and would rather talk about whether one particular video clip was taken out of context. Also, I’ll note that he has about 1.5% as many followers as Bernie does. With all due respect, I’m not too concerned about how Bernie’s doing with the “people who follow campaign consultants on Twitter” demographic. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3190 "2020-01-21T04:03:07Z")
Actually, looks like Biden is going further and saying that the video was “doctored” (again, not sure which of the _multiple_ videos, taken over several decades, showing him calling for SS/Medicare cuts he was talking about). As far as I can see, he offers no evidence for this claim. So who’s practicing dirty politics again? ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3191 "2020-01-21T04:20:14Z")
This is what he was referring to. > **[Did Biden laud Paul Ryan plan to cut Social Security?](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/jan/09/bernie-sanders/did-biden-laud-paul-ryan-proposal-cut-social-secur/)** > > Sen. Bernie Sanders argues that former Vice President Joe Biden sided with a Republican effort to cut Social Security. " Did Biden laud a Paul Ryan proposal to cut Social Security as Bernie Sanders’ campaign said? > [@](#): > > Sanders campaign newsletter said, “In 2018, Biden lauded Paul Ryan for proposing cuts to Social Security and Medicare.” > > That stems from a speech Biden gave in 2018 in which he spoke about Ryan. Biden appeared to be mocking Ryan, not praising him. > > The Sanders campaign omitted what Biden said next: the importance of protecting Social Security and Medicare and to change the tax code, which he said benefitted the mega rich. Overall, the point of Biden’s speech was to criticize tax cuts for the rich and call for more help to the middle class. > > The Sanders campaign plucked out part of what Biden said but omitted the full context of his comments. > > We rate this statement False. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3192 "2020-01-21T04:21:59Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Actually, looks like Biden is going further and saying that the video was “doctored” (again, not sure which of the _multiple_ videos, taken over several decades, showing him calling for SS/Medicare cuts he was talking about). As far as I can see, he offers no evidence for this claim. So who’s practicing dirty politics again? [It _was_ doctored](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-biden/simply-a-lie-biden-accuses-sanders-campaign-of-releasing-doctored-video-idUSKBN1ZH0MM). (Reuters) I posted this link in Post #3130. Please read the story to the end, where PolitiFact rates what was asserted in Sanders’s newsletter as _false_. How do you know the other videos, taken over several decades, weren’t also doctored in the same ways? Again, I have no problem with Sanders calling Biden out on his actual record. That’s fine. But there is no need to resort to Trumpian tactics like doctoring a video to completely twist the context of Biden’s words, as Sanders’s staff did. _That_ is dirty politics. Biden wouldn’t do it to Sanders, that’s sure. Re the Warren thing, some actual cites demonstrated her “guilt” would be nice. If you have them, I mean. ETA: Ninja’d by **Boycott** , I’m happy to concede. ETA again: **Thing Fish** , you might want to review **septimus** ’s excellent Post #3162 to better understand the nuances of Biden’s positions on SSI and Medicare. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3193 "2020-01-21T05:23:23Z")
The clip was not doctored or faked in any way, and the article you linked to doesn’t claim that it was. It may have been taken out of context, but Biden is lying when he says it was “doctored”. So basically, you’re parroting Biden’s lies and then using them to pre-emptively reject any other evidence that would look bad for Biden. Nice. Apparently one can’t link videos from Twitter, but you can check Sirota’s feed, watch multiple clips of Biden on the Senate floor bragging about his efforts to cut Social Security and Medicare, and then tell yourself that C-Span is part of the big meanie Bernie conspiracy. Biden’s surrogates are pushing that 'But Politico said it was false!" line. But all Politico said was false was the specific assertion that Biden was praising Ryan in that one particular video. It didn’t deny that Biden has a record of working with Republicans for the last 40 years in efforts to cut Social Security and Medicare. And even then, their only source for their assertion that Biden was being sarcastic is…the Biden campaign! Pretty crappy journalism. Ooh, [here’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YVVVHc6wyg&feature=youtu.be) a linkable video from a Meet the Press interview in 2007. [Here](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-called-social-security-100600245.html) is the Motley Fool describing Biden’s decades of efforts to cut these vital social programs. Of course, he thinks that’s a _good_ thing. [Here’s](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/19/warren-joins-bernie-jabbing-biden-social-security-101111) a quote from another brainwashed Bernie bro unfairly attacking Biden: > [@Elizabeth Warren (D-MA)](#): > > “Bernie Sanders and I established the ‘Expand Social Security Caucus’ in the Senate,” Warren said in a quick interview as she hopped into her car outside a candidate forum in Iowa. “As a senator, Joe Biden had a very different position on Social Security, and I think everyone’s records on Social Security are important in this election.” [Here’s](https://inthesetimes.com/article/21856/joe-biden-cut-medicare-social-security-retirement-age)an article summarizing Biden’s record on the issue, sourced mainly from the work of that well-known partisan hack Bob Woodward. But hey, maybe Woodward’s book was “doctored”! [Here’s](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/politics/joe-biden-bernie-sanders-social-security.html)a NYT analysis of the brouhaha, pointing out that Biden has misrepresented the Politifact finding. Money quote: > [@](#): > > Throughout his decades in public life, Mr. Biden has at times supported freezes and backed proposals that have alarmed some who worry about the effect on the program. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3194 "2020-01-21T05:31:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I clicked the link and read about Biden and SocSec. As part of budget-balancing efforts, he proposed forgoing (or deferring?) the automatic cost-of-living increase. It’s hard to quibble with calling that a “cut.” He proposed means-testing SocSec, or raising the age. That would certainly be a “cut” for those who lost to the test, or wanted to retire in their mid-60’s. _But he explained at the time that he supported all this to AVOID cuts in more progressive programs like food stamps, Head Start, education grants._ Moreover, he supported all this ONLY in the context of negotiating a deal with the GOP. _When GOP refused to restore taxes on the rich, that was the end of Biden’s support for SocSec cuts._ > > Was it appropriate for Biden to aggressively try to balance the budget? This digression is a hijack, so I’ll summarize this in a Spoiler.[SPOILER]Clinton’s D’s in the 1990’s battled hard to balance the budget, succeeding but spending a HUGE amount of political capital to do so. This was erased and then some by Bush’s R when they took over. > > Obama inherited the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, yet still managed to fight the deficit back to a reasonable level by 2016. Again Trump and the R’s responded by ballooning the deficit as much as they could. > > It’s worth remembering that, independent of funneling money to their rich cronies, the R’s like to increase the debt simply as an excuse to block any spending they disapprove of. After giving trillions to the super-rich, the D’s want to add vegetables to schoolchildren’s diet? “Oh no; they would cost MILLIONS! We can’t afford it.” > > I’m afraid I have to agree with Paul Krugman. Until Republican malice is a thing of the past, there is no progressive purpose to budget balancing: The GOP will plunge the country back into deficit as soon as they get the power again.[/SPOILER] > Ike, JFK, LBJ, Reagan, Bush Sr. — these Presidents were admired, or at least respected, by people of both parties. Even Bush Jr. was respected until his lies and incompetence were on full view. > > But many MANY millions of Americans absolutely detested Barack Obama. (Most of the haters knew nothing about him. Spoiler alert: they hated his wife too.) Many MANY millions of Americans hate Donald Trump. (Include me in this group; indeed I hate all Americans too stupid NOT to hate Trump.) But having most of the other party disrespect the President is NOT the path to restoring domestic tranquility, if such a path is still possible. **Are there many millions of Republicans who would hate Sanders or Warren but give Biden some respect? _Probably so, and I can’t blame Democratic primary voters for focusing on this idea._** (I’m more pessimistic myself, worrying that Lies and Hatred are the new norm for the New America.) Checked this because of Aspenglow’s recommendation. So, according to this generous interpretation, he\*\* did \*\*support cutting Social Security, but he has excuses. Cool. Bernie Sanders has never supported any cuts to Social Security, so need not make excuses. And WRT the last paragraph…so millions of Americans irrationally hated Barack Obama, and the way to restore national unity is to elect Barack Obama’s Vice-President, because those Americans will respect him? Pull the other one, it’s got bells on. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3195 "2020-01-21T05:59:14Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Checked this because of Aspenglow’s recommendation. So, according to this generous interpretation, he\*\* did \*\*support cutting Social Security, but he has excuses. Cool. Bernie Sanders has never supported any cuts to Social Security, so need not make excuses. > … No. At no time has Biden ever suggested a cut to SocSec. If you are freezing the entire federal budget, no that’s not a \*cut. \*If my boss comes to me and says “Doc, no one, including CEO and myself, is getting a raise this year.” I wouldn’t consider that a pay cut. A freeze is not a cut, especially when everything is frozen. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3196 "2020-01-21T06:18:55Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > The clip was not doctored or faked in any way, and the article you linked to doesn’t claim that it was. _It may have been taken out of context_, but Biden is lying when he says it was “doctored”. So basically, you’re parroting Biden’s lies and then using them to pre-emptively reject any other evidence that would look bad for Biden. Nice. Apparently one can’t link videos from Twitter, but you can check Sirota’s feed, watch multiple clips of Biden on the Senate floor bragging about his efforts to cut Social Security and Medicare, and then tell yourself that C-Span is part of the big meanie Bernie conspiracy. The portion that gave the quote context was cut out, making it look like Biden supported (or “lauded,” in the words of the newsletter) Paul Ryan’s views on SSI. That’s “doctored” in my book. You make it sound like people just spontaneously took the video out of context. They didn’t. They were led to believe something that is false through manipulations of the video by Sanders’s team. Having lived through those years when Republicans were pushing hard to balance the budget and each side considered it honorable to work with each other, I remember Biden’s arguments. _In context_ of the times. Context matters. Republicans used to pretend that huge budget deficits were a problem. They’re not wrong. Currently, they have zero interest in fixing it. Biden’s positions on SSI and Medicare have evolved with the times, and I understand that. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Biden’s surrogates are pushing that 'But Politico said it was false!" line. But all Politico said was false was the specific assertion that Biden was praising Ryan in that one particular video. It didn’t deny that Biden has a record of working with Republicans for the last 40 years in efforts to cut Social Security and Medicare. And even then, their only source for their assertion that Biden was being sarcastic is…the Biden campaign! Pretty crappy journalism. Did you watch the entire _unedited_ video in question? I think you should. It speaks for itself. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Ooh, [here’s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YVVVHc6wyg&feature=youtu.be) a linkable video from a Meet the Press interview in 2007. Do you agree that something must be done to fix SSI/Medicare so it can be preserved for people over the long term? If yes, then _how dare_ Joe Biden be willing to actually consider solutions to the problem? I certainly never heard him say he was cutting either program in that clip. I heard him say he would consider raising the eligibility age, and I heard him say Medicare is the far greater concern but he offered no particular solution, saying only that he would consider any proposal. Oooohhh. Is he wrong? > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > [Here](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/joe-biden-called-social-security-100600245.html) is the Motley Fool describing Biden’s decades of efforts to cut these vital social programs. Of course, he thinks that’s a _good_ thing. I see nothing that supports your assertion that the Motley Fool article describes Biden’s “decades of efforts to cut these vital social programs.” I saw an article with a headline that makes an assertion for which they offer exactly zero supporting proof. I guess you liked the headline. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > [Here’s](https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/19/warren-joins-bernie-jabbing-biden-social-security-101111) a quote from another brainwashed Bernie bro unfairly attacking Biden: > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Elizabeth Warren (D-MA) > > “Bernie Sanders and I established the ‘Expand Social Security Caucus’ in the Senate,” Warren said in a quick interview as she hopped into her car outside a candidate forum in Iowa. “As a senator, Joe Biden **had** a very different position on Social Security, and I think everyone’s records on Social Security are important in this election.” I have highlighted the relevant word in Warren’s quote. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > [Here’s](https://inthesetimes.com/article/21856/joe-biden-cut-medicare-social-security-retirement-age)an article summarizing Biden’s record on the issue, sourced mainly from the work of that well-known partisan hack Bob Woodward. But hey, maybe Woodward’s book was “doctored”! Do you remember the _context_ of 2010? First, Biden was pursuing compromise with Republicans on behalf of Barack Obama and in accordance with Obama’s agenda to find a way forward to a “grand bargain” with Republicans, after they swept the 2010 mid-terms. It was Biden’s job to carry out the Obama Administration’s wishes. Second, we were still in a hell of a financial mess created by Republicans during the Bush the Lesser years. Obama/Biden were tasked with finding a way out of that gawd awful wilderness. Remember? It seems you did, since you left out all that _context_ mentioned by Woodward in relating to Biden’s position at that moment in time. > [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > [Here’s](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/18/us/politics/joe-biden-bernie-sanders-social-security.html)a NYT analysis of the brouhaha, pointing out that Biden has misrepresented the Politifact finding. Money quote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Throughout his decades in public life, Mr. Biden has at times supported freezes and backed proposals that have alarmed some who worry about the effect on the program. Wow, you really got me there. Biden has at times supported proposals that might… \ _fix a problem_! Funny; the only solutions I ever hear offered by Sanders is, “tax the rich!” No disagreement from me, but I doubt it’s going to get him elected if he wins the primary. Just to be clear, I’m _on_ SSI. This issue matters to me a great deal. It’s not something abstract that is happening at some distant point in the future for which I can make adjustments. For me, this issue is here and now. I pay very close attention to what is happening to SSI and Medicare. Again, I have no problem with Sanders or Warren offering valid criticisms based on Biden’s actual record. But when Sanders’s people twist the context, that’s reprehensible in my book. And if Sanders’s gambit was so innocent, why did he apologize? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3197 "2020-01-21T06:41:35Z")
Your reading comprehension skills leave a lot to be desired. Here are the relevant excerpts from the Motley Fool article: 1. Raising the full retirement age For those of you who may not recall, this isn’t Joe Biden’s first go-around as a presidential hopeful for the Democratic ticket. Prior to Barack Obama winning the Democratic nomination in 2008, Biden was one of Obama’s competitors for that nomination. Of the many proposals Biden brought to the table in 2007, arguably none was viewed with greater scrutiny than his ideas on buoying retirement savings plans, including Social Security. 1. Orchestrating a $112 billion payroll-tax holiday. Although it was a cut that beneficiaries wouldn’t tangibly see in their benefit checks, Biden was a key figure behind $112 billion worth of Social Security cuts during the early part of this decade. As detailed by Bob Woodward, an investigative journalist who’s worked for the Washington Post for the past 48 years, in his 2012 book The Price of Politics, then-President Obama leaned on Vice President Biden to be his key negotiator at the congressional level between Democrats and Republicans regarding Social Security and other revenue-generating and expenditure-cutting initiatives. The final tax deal that reached Obama’s desk in 2010 extended the George W. Bush-era tax cuts and, most notably, created a payroll-tax holiday that cut payroll tax collection by $112 billion. In 2017, payroll taxes accounted for more than 88% of the just over $1 trillion collected by the Social Security program. By providing a partial payroll-tax holiday, lawmakers hindered the revenue collection potential of the Social Security program’s workhorse. It’s also worth noting that when Biden helped to orchestrate this tax deal, it was well known that Social Security was in deep trouble. In 2010, the Trustees had been forecasting an eventual depletion of Social Security’s asset reserves by 2037, and the report has been alluding to a long-term cash shortfall since 1985. Thus, even with Social Security short on long-term revenue, Biden led the creation of a tax plan that further reduced the program’s income for a short amount of time. While not focusing strictly on cutting benefits, Biden’s noted approach, according to NBC News, was to work on a bipartisan solution that would include discussing options such as raising the full retirement age and increasing the earnings cap associated with the payroll tax. 1. Means-testing for benefits Lastly, as recently as May 2018, Biden has argued for the idea of means-testing for both Social Security and Medicare benefits, which is actually something that President Trump casually suggested while on the campaign trail for the presidency. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3198 "2020-01-21T06:56:57Z")
Answered none of my questions, I see, regarding the need to address long-term viability of SSI/Medicare, or why Sanders felt the need to apologize. Your post also ignores (again) the context of 2007/2008 financial crisis left behind by Republicans for Obama/Biden to deal with. What do you think that payroll tax holiday was all about? I see an ideological argument prepared to support Sanders no matter what. Nothing more. That’s sad. If the situation was reversed, I’d be as willing to call out Biden for ugly tactics. For the record, I’ll vote for Sanders if he wins the nomination. But I’ll sure hate it, after this caper. Fortunately, I don’t think I’ll have to. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3199 "2020-01-21T06:59:18Z")
And nice job there, dishonestly trying to twist Warren’s quote. Massive hypocrisy, anyone? Clearly, she used the past tense because Biden is no longer a Senator, not because they no longer hold differing views. Bernie Sanders, throughout his entire career, has steadfastly fought against all efforts to cut Social Security, whether it be by eliminating COLA, means-testing, raising the retirement age, or any such shenanigans. He has rejected Republican efforts to claim that adequately caring for our elderly is “too expensive”. Joe Biden has consistently been willing, in the name of “bipartisanship”, to treat the welfare of elderly and disabled people as a bargaining chip. If you want to argue that cutting benefits to poor people in order to prevent rich people from having to pay their fair share of taxes is a good thing, go for it. If you want to argue that Joe Biden’s record isn’t what it in fact is, good luck with that. If you just want to keep clutching your pearls about one misleading video instead, you’re just revealing that you know you can’t win either of those arguments on their merits. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3200 "2020-01-21T07:03:20Z")
Missed edit window; the last paragraph of point #2 of the Motley Fool article (beginning “While not focusing…”) should be at the end of point 1. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=159) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=161)