# Hee-haw, y'all. The 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415 "2018-11-12T17:52:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 161
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3201 "2020-01-21T07:10:28Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > And nice job there, dishonestly trying to twist Warren’s quote. Massive hypocrisy, anyone? Clearly, she used the past tense because Biden is no longer a Senator, not because they no longer hold differing views. > > Bernie Sanders, throughout his entire career, has steadfastly fought against all efforts to cut Social Security, whether it be by eliminating COLA, **means-testing** , raising the retirement age, or any such shenanigans. He has rejected Republican efforts to claim that adequately caring for our elderly is “too expensive”. Joe Biden has consistently been willing, in the name of “bipartisanship”, to treat the welfare of elderly and disabled people as a bargaining chip. If you want to argue that cutting benefits to poor people in order to prevent rich people from having to pay their fair share of taxes is a good thing, go for it. If you want to argue that Joe Biden’s record isn’t what it in fact is, good luck with that. If you just want to keep clutching your pearls about one misleading video instead, you’re just revealing that you know you can’t win either of those arguments on their merits. Huh. I was under the impression that ‘means-testing’ is all about taxing the rich over the poor. And raising the retirement age is not “cutting” SSI. Raising the ceiling to impose more taxes on those better off is also not taxing the rich over the poor. It’s taxing those who are wealthier, isn’t it? Biden recognizes that the program is in trouble for people coming down the line, and something needs to be done to fix it for insolvency. Bernie doesn’t appear to notice this. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3202 "2020-01-21T07:11:15Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > And if Sanders’s gambit was so innocent, why did he apologize? I’m not aware that he has. Are you conflating this with his apology for some campaign underling linking to an article questioning Biden’s personal integrity, which was entirely unrelated to this Social Security issue? AFAICT, when questioned about this video “scandal”, he’s done what he does, trying to turn the conversation back to policy and away from this kind of sideshow bullshit. You, like Biden, appear to have bought into the Republican framing that Social Security is “in crisis”, and that we need to cut benefits in order to maintain the financial health of the program. Sanders and I disagree, and feel that the way to ensure Social Security’s long-term solvency is to tax the rich. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3203 "2020-01-21T07:17:27Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Huh. I was under the impression that ‘means-testing’ is all about taxing the rich over the poor. And raising the retirement age is not “cutting” SSI. Raising the ceiling to impose more taxes on those better off is also not taxing the rich over the poor. It’s taxing those who are wealthier, isn’t it? > > Biden recognizes that the program is in trouble for people coming down the line, and something needs to be done to fix it for insolvency. Bernie doesn’t appear to notice this. Of course raising the retirement age is cutting SSI. If the retirement age is raised to 70, SSI will be paying out less than it would if the retirement age was 65. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3204 "2020-01-21T07:18:28Z")
So are you going to apologize for doctoring Warren’s quote, or would you like to explain why it’s OK when you do it? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3205 "2020-01-21T07:20:14Z")
Oh yeah, while you’re at it, you could apologize for falsely stating that the Motley Fool article didn’t contain information backing up its headline. ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3206 "2020-01-21T07:35:53Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I see an ideological argument prepared to support Sanders no matter what. Nothing more. That’s sad. If the situation was reversed, I’d be as willing to call out Biden for ugly tactics. Biden IS using sleazy tactics. He’s describing the video as “doctored”, which to any normal person implies that the video or audio were tampered with, like for example those videos of Pelosi where the audio was altered to make it sound as though she was slurring her words. It’s not synonymous with “edited”! But you’re so blindly supportive of Biden that you not only don’t denounce him for this lie, you repeat it yourself! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3207 "2020-01-21T10:42:15Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > Actually, I think it’s going to backfire on Bernie, as it has on every other Democratic primary candidate who has tried to inartfully dirty up their opponents. Bernie has been no more skillful than Kamala Harris was when she tried it against Biden. You’ll recall how that worked out for her. We’ll see. If it backfires, it means he didn’t do it right. Hopefully the eventual nominee has this skill, because if they don’t, I think they might be doomed to lose. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3208 "2020-01-21T16:49:05Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Of course I would vote for dead Charles Manson over Trump. Really? A dead person cannot be president. SO you are saying you don’t want anyone to be president or you would vote for a live Manson over Trump? if so, you know Manson is a racist right? Is that what you want for president? And you actually think he would be better than Trump? ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3209 "2020-01-21T18:51:17Z")
OK. I’m going to take some deep cleansing breaths and recite my mantra. I recommend this procedure to others. Anyone who commits to voting Democrat in November is my friend and should be treated with respect. Most of us will be disappointed with the outcome of the primary process; all of us need to have our big person pants ready. All of our candidates are intelligent and honest people who sincerely want to do what they think is best for the country. Focus on policies, not personalities. Volunteering for the candidate of your choice and reaching out to actual undecided voters is an infinitely more productive and satisfying use of time than getting into message board pissing matches. A primary is not a tea party. Rival candidates and their supporters will say and do things that piss us off. Be quick to forgive. Holding grudges only helps Trump. Let’s emulate Bernie Sanders and Liz Warren, who called each other liars on national television last week and walked arm in arm, smiling, at an MLK Day parade this week. Namaste. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3210 "2020-01-21T19:06:26Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Of course raising the retirement age is cutting SSI. If the retirement age is raised to 70, SSI will be paying out less than it would if the retirement age was 65. No, it’s not either. "cutting socsec’ is reducing benefits to those already on it. Raising the age helps save SocSec, and people arent retiring as early nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2020, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3211 "2020-01-21T19:10:04Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > Biden IS using sleazy tactics. He’s describing the video as “doctored”, which to any normal person implies that the video or audio were tampered with, like for example those videos of Pelosi where the audio was altered to make it sound as though she was slurring her words. It’s not synonymous with “edited”! But you’re so blindly supportive of Biden that you not only don’t denounce him for this lie, you repeat it yourself! Cutting the video so that the rest of it, which explains what is going on- _is_ 'doctoring" it. Taking a sound bite out of context is doctoring. The video is doctored to show Biden saying\* exactly the opposite of what he meant. \* Sanders should be ashamed of himself. He needs to withdraw form the race. All he is doing is assuring a trump victory by such sleazy tactics. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2020, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3212 "2020-01-22T08:07:04Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > **All of our candidates are intelligent and honest people who sincerely want to do what they think is best for the country.** I’ve added emphasis to the above important quote. It’s an attempt at humor to say we’d vote for a stale ham sandwich or a dead Manson, but the simple fact is that _Almost Every Single Democrat would make a Better President than Almost Every Single Republican._ Mitt Romney and perhaps one or two of the Bush Brothers are the only major GOP politicians the thought of whose Presidency doesn’t make me want to vomit. Most of the GOP are totally insincere — think of Lindsay Graham or Mike Pence whose hypocrisies astound. _Many top Republicans are_ — let’s be brutally frank — _ **criminals** _. (Recall that the first two Congressmen to endorse Trump are now en route to Penitentiary.) There may be a few sincere Republicans other than Romney and the Bushes — Rand Paul and John Kasich come to mind — but their ideas about what is good for America are so bizarrely wrong, they sicken even someone who might like Paul or Kasich personally. I understand that progressives are not fond of the moderate Joe Biden. But calling him “Republican Lite” is so mind-bogglingly ignorant that I’ll make a note to completely ignore any opinions from any Doper who repeats such a confused thought. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3213 "2020-01-23T00:34:13Z")
Here is who REALLY wants to cut SocSec: > **[Trump says reforming Social Security and Medicare is 'the easiest of all...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-says-reforming-social-security-190352318.html)** > > An initiative to cut spending on Social Security and Medicare would be a break from Trump's 2016 campaign pledge to protect funding for those programs. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3214 "2020-01-23T01:41:40Z")
Oops > [@](#): > > While running for re-election in 1996, then-Congressman Sanders said at a news conference that the Social Security system had “been adjusted before, and adjustments will have to be made again.” The Sanders campaign has assailed Biden for saying Social Security was in need of “adjustments” in a 2018 speech, with Chief Policy Adviser Warren Gunnels on Wednesday quoting an interest group saying the term was a “euphemism” for cuts. > > “When politicians want to expand Social Security, which is extremely popular, they say so. They don’t use euphemisms like ‘adjustments,’” Nancy Altman, president of Social Security Works, said in the statement that Gunnels quoted on Twitter. [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/sanders-biden-battle-over-who-will-best-protect-social-security](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-22/sanders-biden-battle-over-who-will-best-protect-social-security) ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3215 "2020-01-23T02:09:24Z")
Of course, there must be literally thousands of occasions for decades before and after that where Sanders did explicitly call for\* expanding\* Social Security, as he continues to do today. And Ms. Altman is correct, it is quite popular! So. Bernie’s campaign notes the many times over the years Biden has been willing to freeze or cut Social Security. Biden’s surrogates respond with a 24 year old gotcha quote. Next step: Bernie returns the focus to policy, Biden responds by distracting the low information voters with shiny things. I’ve seen this movie before. ---
**Author:** ![Boycott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boycott/32/6741_2.png) [@Boycott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boycott)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3216 "2020-01-23T02:54:35Z")
Joe Biden has never voted for cuts as a senator. He has the same rating from the ARA as Ted Kennedy. And the hypocrisy of the expression adjustment is the point. Here’s some notable bills Biden co-sponsored regarding social security over the years: \*\*An Act to strengthen and improve the Older Americans Act of 1965, and for other purposes. \*\* **A bill to amend title II of the Social Security Act to increase the amount which individuals may earn without suffering deductions from benefits on account of excess earnings.** **A bill to amend title II of the Social Security Act so as to liberalize the conditions governing eligibility of blind persons to receive disability insurance benefits thereunder.** **A bill to provide for a 7 percent increase in social security benefits beginning with benefits payable for the month of January 1974.** \*\*A bill to amend title XVIII of the Social Security Act to provide optometric and medical vision care. A concurrent resolution opposing increases in medical costs for the elderly.\*\* \*\*A bill to provide a special payment to certain elderly and disabled social security recipients. A bill to eliminate the disability waiting period for individuals with terminal illnesses. A bill to amend title II of the Social Security Act to increase to $6,000 the annual amount which individuals may earn without suffering deductions from their social security benefits on account of excess earnings. A bill to make permanent section 1619 of the Social Security Act, which provides SSI benefits for individuals who perform substantial gainful activity despite a severe medical impairment. A bill to amend title XIX of the Social Security Act to provide mandatory coverage for certain low-income pregnant women and infants. A bill to amend the Older Americans Act of 1965 to extend the authorizations of appropriations for that Act, and for other purposes. A resolution protecting social security beneficiaries from cola cuts. Social Security Fairness Act of 2007\*\* **Elder Justice Act of 2008** [https://www.congress.gov/member/joseph-biden/B000444](https://www.congress.gov/member/joseph-biden/B000444) Some more info on the 90s stuff > > > Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez @AOC ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3217 "2020-01-23T17:46:09Z")
OK, I really try to not to be the guy who bursts into the forum to brag every time his candidate gets a good poll, but this is pretty sweet. Last night Nate Silver pointed out that Bernie’s numbers have been getting better nationally, but worse in IA and NH, in the last week. He said: Essentially, this leaves us with three plausible interpretations of the post-debate polling: > [@](#): > > National polls tell the true story of the race, and the slightly quirky set of recent Iowa and New Hampshire polls since the debate are misleading. If so, Sanders should expect to do better in the next set of Iowa and New Hampshire polls. This would be good news for Sanders. > > ``` > All of this is noise, and none of the candidates’ positions have changed much since the debate. This would be neutral news for Sanders. > > Whether or not Sanders is gaining in national polls, Iowa and New Hampshire have their own dynamics, and Sanders does not appear to be closing strongly there. This would be bad news for Sanders. > > ``` And then this morning [this](https://www.wbur.org/news/2020/01/23/new-hampshire-bernie-sanders-lead-january)drops: NH: Sanders 29, Buttigieg 17, Biden 14, Warren 13. From an A/B rated pollster yet. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Thing\_Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@Thing\_Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing_Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3218 "2020-01-23T18:00:46Z")
Here’s the full, non-doctored, text of the Nancy Altman quote that is now being used by Biden’s people to smear Sanders. Pretty damn hypocritical of them to complain about things being taken out of context. > [@](#): > > (Washington, DC) — The following is a statement from Nancy Altman, President of Social Security Works and one of the nation’s leading Social Security experts: > > “Vice President Joe Biden recently claimed that the Bernie Sanders campaign ‘doctored’ a clip of a 2018 speech, to make it appear that he supports cutting Social Security. The truth is that the clip is in no way doctored. > > Indeed, the full speech is worse than the clip, because it includes Biden saying that Social Security ‘needs adjustments.’ That’s well known DC insider speak for ‘cut benefits.’ > > Biden’s campaign now claims that the adjustments he had in mind were benefit expansions, but this explanation is not credible. When politicians want to expand Social Security, which is extremely popular, they say so. They don’t use euphemisms like ‘adjustments.’ > > Additionally, the 2018 speech must be viewed in the context of Biden’s 40 year record of being open to benefit cuts. At various times, he’s expressed openness to raising the retirement age, reducing cost-of-living adjustments, and means testing. > > Now, Biden is running for president on a platform of expanding, not cutting, Social Security. This is both smart politics and wise policy, because the nation is facing a retirement income crisis. But Biden’s past record on Social Security, combined with his frequently expressed desire to work with Congressional Republicans, is still cause for concern. > > Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell says he wants to work with the next Democratic President — on cutting Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. That begs the question: Is Biden’s newfound commitment to Social Security stronger than his desire for bipartisan dealmaking?” [Here](https://socialsecurityworks.org/2020/01/21/joe-bidens-social-security-record-is-cause-for-concern/)is a link to that statement on her website, which contains numerous links supporting its assertions. And here’s a quote from Biden on the Senate floor in 1995: > [@Joe Biden](#): > > “When I argued that we should freeze federal spending, I meant Social Security as well,” he told the Senate in 1995. “I meant Medicare and Medicaid. I meant veterans’ benefits. I meant every single solitary thing in the government. And I not only tried it once, I tried it twice, I tried it a third time, and I tried it a fourth time.” So the statement that he’s never voted for cuts is just false, unless you want to embarrass yourself by resorting to the silly argument that taking away COLAs isn’t a “cut”. He has not only voted for cuts, he has vigorously advocated them on numerous occasions. [Here](https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/) is a good overview on Biden’s record on the issue. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3219 "2020-01-23T18:10:43Z")
Glad to see that new Bernie poll for NH. My totally non-scientific gut feeling (which failed miserably in the 2016 general election, BTW, if anyone is considering putting a high value on it… though it did pretty well in 2018 and very well in 2012) is that Bernie has some very good momentum at about exactly the right time, and has a solid chance of winning both Iowa and NH. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/3220 "2020-01-23T18:11:57Z")
> [@Thing\_Fish](#): > > OK, I really try to not to be the guy who bursts into the forum to brag every time his candidate gets a good poll, but this is pretty sweet. > > Last night Nate Silver pointed out that Bernie’s numbers have been getting better nationally, but worse in IA and NH, in the last week. He said: > Essentially, this leaves us with three plausible interpretations of the post-debate polling: > > And then this morning [this](https://www.wbur.org/news/2020/01/23/new-hampshire-bernie-sanders-lead-january)drops: > > NH: Sanders 29, Buttigieg 17, Biden 14, Warren 13. > > From an A/B rated pollster yet. 😃 Yeah, Sanders is looking pretty good in NH right now. It’s not just that one poll, either: if you go to [https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/new-hampshire/](https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-primary-d/new-hampshire/) and look at the five polls currently on the front page (which are the most recent), Sanders is ahead by more than the MOE in two of those (the one that **Thing Fish** cites, plus the Emerson College poll from a week ago) and is statistically tied with Biden in the other three. And I have to call bullshit on Silver’s claim that Sanders’ numbers are getting worse in Iowa. The only polls that have been in the field in the past week and a half have been from one B/C-rated pollster and one unrated pollster. AFAIAC, the B/C pollster barely moves the needle, and the unrated pollster, not at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=160) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=162)