# Hee-haw, y'all. The 2020 Democratic Presidential Primary **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 12, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415 "2018-11-12T17:52:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 46
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/901 "2019-04-25T18:50:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Only because no Kremlin & GOP smear campaign, and in fact the opposite, they supported him vs Hillary. Those much linked polls are thus useless. The Smear campaigns lowered Hillary’s popularity by a significant amount. The Comey letter was the biggest, but the social media trolls and smear campaigns were significant. Why are the polls useless? Maybe people did not like Clinton for what you consider the wrong reasons but that does not matter to a poll or in the voting booth. > [@](#): > > Actually no, Status Quo may be what we need. I’ll quote it again: “This voting phenomenon tells us that working-class voters are disenchanted with the status quo.” Sanders had a crossover appeal that Clinton lacked. If you want the “most electable” candidate in the general election then you want the person who can draw in people from the other side. Sanders proved he has that ability. Biden, basically a Clinton Clone, probably won’t so much. > [@](#): > > And there wont be any Comey letter for Biden, and we can already see the smear campaign : > > 1. Biden is a good and honorable man who gave a eulogy for a long term co-worker, concentrating on the few good things he did/ Smeared as: \*Biden said some nice things about a very bad man, thus Biden concurred 100% with everything that bad man did. \* > > 2. Biden is a old school baby-kissing and put his arms around people in pictures politico/ smeared as he is a creepy pedophile. > > 3. Biden is a smart campaigner and accepts funds from many sources/ Smeared as Biden is a tool of Big Banks/whatever. > > I want you to think about that- the Bernie-bros and co dug up a 2003 eulogy Biden did for a fellow Sentaro (Biden is the “go to” guy for eulogies in the Senate, see his very nice one for McCain) and somehow turned that into a smear.\*\* 16 yo eulogy. > \*\* What can the Kremlin and GOP smear Sanders with? Dont tell me there aren’t things even worse that a 16 yo eulogy. Wow, you really think that is it? That is why people hate on Biden? If they only realized how shallow and silly that was they’d love him for the virtuous paragon of nobility that he is? Here’s [5,700 words on his legislative history and policies](https://harpers.org/archive/2019/03/joe-biden-record/) on why I don’t like him and think he is a terrible candidate (and yeah, I counted). This will be his fourth time running too. Three-time loser has another go. What could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/902 "2019-04-26T10:11:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I agree with these choices … EXCEPT _ **exclude Sanders please!** _ This guy, who is five years older than Trump, will be branded as a Socialist; I’m afraid he’s unelectable. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Every Democrat will be branded as a socialist. Yes, but only Bernie has applied the label to himself. And if nominated, here’s what we will hear from every Republican, every political ad, and every mainstream media outlet for months up to the election: _ **SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! etc.** _ And because there’s something ingrained in the American psyche (that even cuts across party lines) that knows socialism to be “bad”, Bernie will go down in flames, taking with him other Democrats and setting back the entire progressive agenda another decade. It’s not rational and it’s not fair but we don’t live in a rational or fair world. Bernie would probably be a good president but if you’re not factoring in the obvious source of mud for the slinging machines you’re not truly understanding his chances of getting elected. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/903 "2019-04-26T11:28:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, but only Bernie has applied the label to himself. And if nominated, here’s what we will hear from every Republican, every political ad, and every mainstream media outlet for months up to the election: > > _ **SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! etc.** _ Do you think this is something new? It [isn’t](https://dn.truthorfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/22095209/Robert_Reich_on_Twitter ___For_over_80_years__ Republicans_have_used_the_term __socialist__ to_attack_every_Democratic_program_that_s_become_essential_to_the_wellbeing_of_Americans.jpg) and I wouldn’t worry. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/904 "2019-04-26T11:33:08Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > ## Looks like \*\*septimus \*\*and I are fairly close in our outlook. … > > DO. NOT. WANT: > > Klobuchar Fairly close. But what’s so wrong about Klobuchar? Disclaimer: I know very little about most of the candidates. I just react to the obvious highlights and a few interviews I’ve seen on Youtube. (Then again, maybe this ignorance makes me a good proxy for the average American voter.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/905 "2019-04-26T11:38:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, but only Bernie has applied the label to himself. And if nominated, here’s what we will hear from every Republican, every political ad, and every mainstream media outlet for months up to the election: > > _ **SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! etc.** _ > > And because there’s something ingrained in the American psyche (that even cuts across party lines) that knows socialism to be “bad”, Bernie will go down in flames, taking with him other Democrats and setting back the entire progressive agenda another decade. > > It’s not rational and it’s not fair but we don’t live in a rational or fair world. Bernie would probably be a good president but if you’re not factoring in the obvious source of mud for the slinging machines you’re not truly understanding his chances of getting elected. This strikes me as no better than a guess, considering what we learned about voters at large in 2016. I was as certain that Trump was unelectable as you appear to be about Bernie. Addendum: No one should feel good about their own predictive powers any more. If you feel good about yours, that’s fine, but that strikes me as setting yourself up to look like a fool. If you’re right, you guessed right… and anyone can make a guess. The only predictions I’ll take onboard as having any sort of useful legitimacy are those with a consistent data-driven record of accuracy (i.e. Nate Silver’s data model predictions). ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/906 "2019-04-26T11:42:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Yes, but only Bernie has applied the label to himself. And if nominated, here’s what we will hear from every Republican, every political ad, and every mainstream media outlet for months up to the election: > > _ **SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! SOCIALISM! etc.** _ > > And because there’s something ingrained in the American psyche (that even cuts across party lines) that knows socialism to be “bad”, Bernie will go down in flames, taking with him other Democrats and setting back the entire progressive agenda another decade. > > It’s not rational and it’s not fair but we don’t live in a rational or fair world. Bernie would probably be a good president but if you’re not factoring in the obvious source of mud for the slinging machines you’re not truly understanding his chances of getting elected. My hunch is that it won’t be necessarily be Bernie’s embrace of socialism itself that takes Bernie down in a general election; rather, the Republicans will exploit his recent fame and newfound wealth to characterize him as a _hypocritical_ socialist, who lives as a millionaire with multiple properties but advocates socialism for everyone else. Not that I or anyone I know would fall for that gambit, but there are a lot of dumb voters out there who would, unfortunately. Beyond that, I wouldn’t put it past the Russian troll farms to engage in blatant antisemitic propaganda, and I wouldn’t put it past Falwell and people of his ilk to exploit it either. Although Bernie downplays his Jewish roots and doesn’t seem particularly religious, reality and perceived reality are two different things. I could see a lot of “Do you _really_ want a hypocritical Jewish socialist as president?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/907 "2019-04-26T11:45:20Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do you think this is something new? It [isn’t](https://dn.truthorfiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/22095209/Robert_Reich_on_Twitter ___For_over_80_years__ Republicans_have_used_the_term __socialist__ to_attack_every_Democratic_program_that_s_become_essential_to_the_wellbeing_of_Americans.jpg) and I wouldn’t worry. I reiterate the first sentence of the segment of my post you quoted. Republicans accusing Democrats of being socialist isn’t remotely new. Democrats (and Sanders) labelling themselves with the word _is_. And nobody who doesn’t already know the difference is going to be swayed by an explanation of the social democrat/democratic socialist/socialist distinction. And of course this is a guess, **iiandyiiii**. The difference between this and the previous Trump predictions, however, is that Trump’s numbers didn’t factor in the level of irrational antipathy in the voting public nor the sheer amount of combined right-wing and foreign shitstirring designed to play to that irrational antipathy, whereas my guess is attempting to factor those very things in. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/908 "2019-04-26T12:03:37Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I reiterate the first sentence of the segment of my post you quoted. Republicans accusing Democrats of being socialist isn’t remotely new. Democrats (and Sanders) labelling themselves with the word _is_. And nobody who doesn’t already know the difference is going to be swayed by an explanation of the social democrat/democratic socialist/socialist distinction. > > And of course this is a guess, **iiandyiiii**. The difference between this and the previous Trump predictions, however, is that Trump’s numbers didn’t factor in the level of irrational antipathy in the voting public nor the sheer amount of combined right-wing and foreign shitstirring designed to play to that irrational antipathy, whereas my guess is attempting to factor those very things in. It’s fine that you think this, but you’ll forgive me if I see it as no more useful or predictive than flipping a coin. We won’t know how voters feel about “socialism” as Bernie uses it, in a voting context, unless and until votes are counted in a Bernie vs someone general election. For every American that would otherwise vote Dem but absolutely hates the concept of socialism, there could well be an American who won’t vote at all unless it’s for Bernie. We just don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/909 "2019-04-26T12:32:27Z")
The thing with Sanders labeling himself as a socialist is that it’s therefore baked in. Sure, he didn’t face the Kremlin smear machine, but he did face a constant mantra of SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, because he was chanting it himself. And even with SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, people still said they favored him pretty strongly over Trump. You can’t attack someone by publicizing their own messaging. If the Kremlin attacks on Sanders come (and if he’s the nominee, they will come), they won’t be just SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, because that won’t work against him. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/910 "2019-04-26T13:18:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The thing with Sanders labeling himself as a socialist is that it’s therefore baked in. Sure, he didn’t face the Kremlin smear machine, but he did face a constant mantra of SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, because he was chanting it himself. And even with SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, people still said they favored him pretty strongly over Trump. > > You can’t attack someone by publicizing their own messaging. If the Kremlin attacks on Sanders come (and if he’s the nominee, they will come), they won’t be just SOCIALISM SOCIALISM SOCIALISM, because that won’t work against him. Yeah. It’d be like trying to smear Biden for being gay. Maybe it would work. But if you tried to smear Buttigieg for being gay he’d just answer, “Yeah. And…?” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/911 "2019-04-26T13:29:15Z")
“Socialist” isn’t the quite the dirty word it was a decade or so ago, or even four years ago, [especially with younger voters](https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-young-americans-embracing-socialism-b051907a-87a8-4f61-9e6e-0db75f7edc4a.html). True taken as an item, a label, in isolation, it is something that most voters ([76%](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/398580-poll-majority-of-americans-say-the-would-not-vote-for-a)) say they could not vote for. But in a context in which Trump has embraced Putin and Russia and who represents an extreme of unfettered unchecked capitalism, against a Democratic candidate who self-describes as a democratic socialist evoking not Iron Curtain Socialism but (accurately or not) more the Nordic social democracy vibe? Not sure that past or even current polling is likely to be so predictive. I’m not a Sanders fan but there is an argument to be made that “change” is often the best sales approach in a presidential election in particular with working class swingable voters and those who are at risk of sitting on their asses. Obama won on “change” and Trump did as well. In a Sanders-Trump battle “SOCIALIST!” will get plenty of chances to be put into contrast against “business as usual unrestrained capitalism” taking from working people still barely making ends meet as the very richest get even richer and more powerful. The Sanders focus will be “yes, I am against the worsening wealth inequality.” It might even play _well_ with swingable voters. There are, IMHO, lots of reasons to prefer someone else other than Sanders, but running scared from Trump and co. yelling SOCIALIST! is not, in my mind, one of them. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/912 "2019-04-26T14:20:40Z")
I don’t have a prediction, I would never put one forth after the last election. But I have a feeling. My feeling is that Sanders can’t beat Trump. Yeah, Sanders has a following, the idealists that listen to progressive radio shows and podcasts and such. And I know these people are true in their noble beliefs. But do they fall in line if it isn’t Sanders? I hope that whoever gets the Dem nod can beat Trump, but I ain’t feeling it for Mr. Sanders, even though I agree with a lot of what he says. For the record, I will vote for whichever candidate the Democrats slate. ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/913 "2019-04-26T14:33:15Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Yeah, Sanders has a following, the idealists that listen to progressive radio shows and podcasts and such. And I know these people are true in their noble beliefs. But do they fall in line if it isn’t Sanders? I hope that whoever gets the Dem nod can beat Trump, but I ain’t feeling it for Mr. Sanders… The following is one data point. ONE. But if others know of the same experience, then your fears are well-founded. My nephew was a Bernie-Bro. Bought the t-shirt; I think even went to a rally. He was Bernie-this and Bernie-that for _months_. In the general election, he voted for Trump. Why? I don’t know. To shake things up? To voice his displeasure for how the DNC tipped the scales for Clinton? My nephew’s biggest goal in 2016 was where he could score his next bag of weed. Maybe he thought Bernie would give him free weed. But when Bernie didn’t get the nomination, there was no consideration whatsoever to “fall in line” and vote for the Dem candidate. I haven’t talked to him this election cycle. Maybe I’ll see what his thoughts are. Maybe he has matured. At least now he has a job. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/914 "2019-04-26T14:51:56Z")
I’m not sure of Doper’s general support for Sanders over the others, but it might make for an interesting poll. Sanders supporters: will you vote for the Democrat if it isn’t Sanders? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/915 "2019-04-26T14:56:47Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I don’t have a prediction, I would never put one forth after the last election. But I have a feeling. My feeling is that Sanders can’t beat Trump. Yeah, Sanders has a following, the idealists that listen to progressive radio shows and podcasts and such. And I know these people are true in their noble beliefs. But do they fall in line if it isn’t Sanders? I hope that whoever gets the Dem nod can beat Trump, but I ain’t feeling it for Mr. Sanders, even though I agree with a lot of what he says. For the record, I will vote for whichever candidate the Democrats slate. Pretty much every analysis out there suggests that Sanders would have beaten Trump in the general election in 2016. Trump also refused to debate Sanders (if he felt confident of wrecking Sanders Trump would have leapt at the chance). Sanders had a crossover appeal with the voters that ultimately swung it for Trump. Clinton never got those voters. We’ll never know for sure but a best guess suggests your gut is wrong on this one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/916 "2019-04-26T15:20:41Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > I’m not sure of Doper’s general support for Sanders over the others, but it might make for an interesting poll. Sanders supporters: will you vote for the Democrat if it isn’t Sanders? Perhaps start a actual poll? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/917 "2019-04-26T15:24:24Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Pretty much every analysis out there suggests that Sanders would have beaten Trump in the general election in 2016. Trump also refused to debate Sanders (if he felt confident of wrecking Sanders Trump would have leapt at the chance). > > Sanders had a crossover appeal with the voters that ultimately swung it for Trump. Clinton never got those voters. > > We’ll never know for sure but a best guess suggests your gut is wrong on this one. Again, for the Nth time, that was because Sanders wasn’t hit by a smear campaign. In fact, somewhat the opposite, the kremlin & GOP supported him over Hillary. And that’s gonna come out- why _did_ the Russian trolls support Bernie over Hillary? Because Putin was scared of Hillary? Or was it “Because Sanders is a Commie!” ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/918 "2019-04-26T15:34:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Perhaps start a actual poll? No. I’m a little interested, but not enough. I’ll just wait and see what happens with the election. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/919 "2019-04-26T16:11:25Z")
> [@divemaster](#): > > The following is one data point. ONE. But if others know of the same experience, then your fears are well-founded. > > My nephew was a Bernie-Bro. Bought the t-shirt; I think even went to a rally. He was Bernie-this and Bernie-that for _months_. > > In the general election, he voted for Trump. Why? I don’t know. To shake things up? To voice his displeasure for how the DNC tipped the scales for Clinton? My nephew’s biggest goal in 2016 was where he could score his next bag of weed. Maybe he thought Bernie would give him free weed. But when Bernie didn’t get the nomination, there was no consideration whatsoever to “fall in line” and vote for the Dem candidate. > > I haven’t talked to him this election cycle. Maybe I’ll see what his thoughts are. Maybe he has matured. At least now he has a job. It is worth noting that since about 2010, independents have been the largest political group. The Republicans have been the political minority since the 1930s, but Democrats began a long decline starting in the 1970s when they became associated with liberalism. Independents are basically the Republicans who could no longer stand being called Republicans but they are still more likely to be white and moderately conservative, though occasionally being open minded about some progressive ideas like healthcare and immigration reform and ideals like tolerance of gays and minorities. It is very likely that independents will be open to some modest liberalization. They might be inclined to support an increase a modest increase in the minimum wage. They probably agree that the rich should pay more in taxes. They probably support a handful of proposals to make higher ed and job training more affordable. But when you ask the middle class taxpayer to open up their wallets for things like medicare for all and free college, good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2019, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415/920 "2019-04-26T16:16:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > “Socialist” isn’t the quite the dirty word it was a decade or so ago, or even four years ago, [especially with younger voters](https://www.axios.com/exclusive-poll-young-americans-embracing-socialism-b051907a-87a8-4f61-9e6e-0db75f7edc4a.html). True taken as an item, a label, in isolation, it is something that most voters ([76%](https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/398580-poll-majority-of-americans-say-the-would-not-vote-for-a)) say they could not vote for. But in a context in which Trump has embraced Putin and Russia and who represents an extreme of unfettered unchecked capitalism, against a Democratic candidate who self-describes as a democratic socialist evoking not Iron Curtain Socialism but (accurately or not) more the Nordic social democracy vibe? Not sure that past or even current polling is likely to be so predictive. > > I’m not a Sanders fan but there is an argument to be made that “change” is often the best sales approach in a presidential election in particular with working class swingable voters and those who are at risk of sitting on their asses. Obama won on “change” and Trump did as well. > > In a Sanders-Trump battle “SOCIALIST!” will get plenty of chances to be put into contrast against “business as usual unrestrained capitalism” taking from working people still barely making ends meet as the very richest get even richer and more powerful. The Sanders focus will be “yes, I am against the worsening wealth inequality.” It might even play _well_ with swingable voters. > > There are, IMHO, lots of reasons to prefer someone else other than Sanders, but running scared from Trump and co. yelling SOCIALIST! is not, in my mind, one of them. Socialist might be losing a bit of its stigma but wait until the election when memes and propaganda referencing every far left atrocity and economic failure are linked with what socialism means historically. That being nationalized means of production and a corrupt and hypocritical ruling class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=45) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hee-haw-yall-the-2020-democratic-presidential-primary/824415.md?page=47)