# Heinlein Fans--Time Enough for Love? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 29, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578 "2002-06-29T16:08:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/1 "2002-06-29T16:08:18Z")
I’ve just started this book, considered by many to be one of Heinlein’s best. So far so good; however, what am I getting myself into here? I’ve not read a _lot_ of Heinlein, but what I have read falls into two camps. Loved it; or hated it. Most of the short stories I thought were good. Loved _Starship Troopers_. However, I thought _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was a bunch of New Age hippy-dippy crapola. The first book by Heinlein I ever read was _The Cat Who Walked Through Walls_. Ugh. That was a while ago, but I recall it being quite juvenile; and Heinlein, to me, came across as a “dirty old man” more than once in the book. Anyway, should I give TEFL a go? Don’t spoil the plot for me, but you can give a general sense of the tone or themes. Is it worth the almost 600 pages (pbk)? ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/2 "2002-06-29T16:31:08Z")
I don’t think many think of it as among his best. It’s a bunch of linked stories about Lazarus Long – fair, but not outstanding. His best is probably “Double Star,” “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress,” or “Stranger” Many of his juveniles (e.g., “The Rolling Stones,” “The Star Beast,” etc.) are also very good reads. ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/3 "2002-06-29T17:02:14Z")
There are some decent bits in “Time Enough for Love”…“The Tale of the Adopted Daughter”, for example. But the book overall I found quite weak…the whole is less than the sum of it’s parts. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/4 "2002-06-29T18:20:06Z")
I don’t know what you’d get out of _The Cat Who Walked Through Walls_ as a first read – there’s a lot of subtext that wouldn’t make a lick of sense without familiarity with earlier writings - including _Time Enough For Love_, (which I do consider to be among his best.) I imagine that someone who didn’t know _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ would be pretty confused by the ending of _The Cat Who Walks Through Walls_. I think that if you disliked _Stranger in a Strange Land_, the odds are that you’ll not be terribly impressed with _Time Enough For Love_ – if only because of the “new-age hippy-dippy crapola.” (Or libertarianism, if you prefer.) Myself, I like them both. But my all-time favourite Robert Heinlein novel is _The Number of the Beast_. Difficult to describe without significant spoilers, so I won’t even try. It’s my favourite take on the many-worlds theme, though-- and the lampoon of L. Ron Hubbard at the end is the funniest thing I’ve ever read in the SF genre. (And I’m figuring in the entire canon of Stanislaw Lem.) ---
**Author:** ![aramis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aramis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aramis)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/5 "2002-06-29T18:22:18Z")
Heinlein can be tough to read. He has some good ideas for stories but his execution of them is poor to fair. Almost all of his lead characters are essentially the same person – different names, different genders, different time periods but still essentially the same underneath. His dialogue is often atrociously bad. He often uses his character situations as a convenient excuse for a rant on some pet peeve of his. After writing all this, I’m sitting here wondering why in the world I’ve read and enjoyed so many of his books… but I did. So finish TEFL and let us know what you think. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/6 "2002-06-29T18:25:27Z")
TEFL is for the serious Heinlein fan. It’s another milestone in his fall from The-Greatest-Science-Fiction-Storyteller-Ever to The-Most-Self-Indulgent… Here’s my list: Novels/Novellas Sixth Column - 1941 Methuselah’s Children - 1941 Beyond This Horizon - 1942 Waldo and Magic, Inc. - 1950 The Puppet Masters - 1951 Revolt in 2100 - 1953 Double Star - 1956 \*\*\*The Door into Summer - 1957 \*\*\*Starship Troopers - 1959 \*\*Stranger in a Strange Land - 1961 \*\*Orphans of the Sky - 1963 \*\*\*Glory Road - 1963 \*Farnham’s Freehold - 1964 \*\*The Moon is a Harsh Mistress - 1966 I Will Fear No Evil - 1970 Time Enough for Love - 1973 The Number of the Beast - 1979 Friday - 1982 Job: A Comedy of Justice - 1984 The Cat Who Walks Through Walls - 1985 To Sail Beyond the Sunset - 1987 Juvenile Novels Rocket Ship Galileo - 1947 Space Cadet - 1948 \*Red Planet - 1949 Farmer in the Sky - 1950 Between Planets - 1951 The Rolling Stones - 1952 \*\*Starman Jones - 1953 \*The Star Beast - 1954 \*\*\*Tunnel in the Sky - 1955 \*\*\*Time for the Stars - 1956 \*\*\*Citizen of the Galaxy - 1957 \*\*\*Have Space Suit - Will Travel - 1958 \*\*Podkayne of Mars - 1963 Short Story Collections \*The Man Who Sold the Moon - 1950 \*The Green Hills of Earth - 1951 \*\*\*The Menace from Earth - 1959 \*\*\*The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag - 1959 (aka 6xH) The Worlds of Robert A. heinlein - 1966 The Past Through Tomorrow - 1967 Expanded Universe - 1980 The Fantasies of Robert A. heinlein - 1999 Notes - one \* is good, two is better, three is highly recommended (IMHO). - no stars doesn’t necessarily mean a loser, however the novels after “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” start to go downhill. “The Number of the Beast” was, bar none, the worst book I’ve ever read. - the collections after 1959 are often re-workings of earlier collections, with some new material and some non-fiction essays. - don’t be dissuaded by the term “Juvenile Novels” - these do not talk down to the reader. The protaganist is always a teenager. There is puppy-love but no sex. I’m surprised no one has mentioned “Glory Road” - it’s a good place to start. Or the three-star juvenile novels. The problem with Heinlein , (other than his political, sociological stance which has been talked about elsewhere) is that he tends to have the same characters in every novel: The Young Idealist, Tough But Feminine Heroine and Crusty Old Father Figure. So, don’t try to read too many of these at a time. [See this thread as well](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=92140) ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/7 "2002-06-29T18:56:08Z")
Considering that _Stranger in a Strange Land_ was published in 1961, you could think a while about cause and effect. > [@](#): > > a bunch of New Age hippy-dippy crapola Not to say that it caused the hippie thing of the late 60’s, but it was certainly a part of what made the brew. I was born '61, but still remember enough of the sixties and what my folks told me to get a hunch of just _how_ controversial this book was at the time. I have all of RAH’s work. I have the newer editions, put out by Ginny Heinlein. Every now and then I re-read the whole lot. I always read all the L. Long books in order and find the discussions in them entertaining, even if the plots went sour over the years. Yes, there is always the Hero, the very tough woman, who is often a jack-of-all-trades, and the father figure, a Heinlein in disguise, lecturing the naive hero, and us the readers, on Heinleins political agenda. A lot of bad things may be said about RAH, and a lot of people have said them. But… He’s career spanned 4 decades. He practically invented modern science fiction (yes, I mean it). He always tried to stay fresh and provocative, sometimes missing the target, and sometimes doing homeruns. His books from the 80’s are a little tired, but I still think _Job: A comedy of justice_ is RAH at his best. A few of the so called juviniles stand out and shine brighter than many things in literature - especially _Have Space Suit, will travel_. As for TEFL and the OP. Leave it for now and read some of his earlier stuff: _The Moon is a Harsh Mistress_ is a good place to start and go from there to the collection _The Past Through Tomorrow_. If you’re hooked by then, TEFL will be a good read. If not, you might as well spare yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/8 "2002-06-29T19:14:28Z")
I consider _Stranger in a Strange Land_ , while a staggering work of genius 🙂 , to be almost completely unrepresentative of the rest of Heinlein’s work. On finding out that I’m a Heinlein fanatic, a lot of people will say, “I’ve never read Heinlein. I should probably pick up _Stranger in a Strange Land_ one of these days,” or “Oh, I read _Stranger in a Strange Land_ and I didn’t really like it,” I always tell them no-no-no-no-no, read something else. And, as others have said, _Cat Who Walks Through Walls_ is part of the Trilogy of Self-Indulgent Claptrap, which also contains _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_, and whose most egregious member is _The Number of the Beast_. These are for hardcore Heinlein freaks only. _Time Enough For Love_ is, in some sense, a prelude to the trilogy, but was written safely before. It’s probably your heaviest dose of straight-up Heinlein personal philosophy, wrapped up in a good yarn with lots of interesting (albeit ubermenschy) characters. It’s far from his best work, but it’s definitely part of the “essential” Heinlein, especially if you’re ever going to another crack at the Self-Indulgent Trilogy. I highly recommend the juvies, by the way. They’re short, and not usually very deep, but every last one of them is a fine and enjoyable novel worth reading–not “kid’s stuff.” ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/9 "2002-06-29T19:20:47Z")
For new Heinlein readers, I always recommend basically the two-and three star juveniles and early adult books. You can’t go wrong with “Double Star”, “The Door Into Summer”, “Tunnel In The Sky”, “Time For the Stars”, or “Citizen of the Galaxy”. These books and a few others are what really established Heinlein as the ‘Dean of Science Fiction’, and the skill they display is considerable. One of Heinlein’s strongest skills was his ability to thoroughly depict a society, the people, places, and events, without ever having to resort to long, boring, expository paragraphs. He just tells a story. Along the way, you realize that you have a complete mental picture of the locations and people, but if you go back and re-read the book you’ll find that he never really describes them in detail, at least not all at once. The world just builds up around you as you read. Unfortunately, his later books were hurt by a number of things. Heinlein had a problem with blood flow to his brain which caused him to lose a lot of his faculties for a number of years. An operation fixed that problem, but by then he was quite old and his books showed it. The books written after 1970 are of varing quality, and IMO none of them measured up to the dozens of great books he wrote when he was in his 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/10 "2002-06-29T20:46:04Z")
My first three Heinlein reads were Moon, Stranger, and Cat. I tried again with Number, and stayed away for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/11 "2002-06-29T22:10:20Z")
Sam Stone: I think you very much on target with the description things. What makes Heinlain so great is that you almost never get a feeling that he is writing about A/The Future. Instead he writes as if it’s a contemporary novell, and he himself is in the future, or even as a narative about what happened about ten years ago, from the writers perspective. _Cat_ might be bad, but IIRC it’s the story where they are going to rent a skycar or whatever. They can only find one at Budget, and it’s an old Volvo clunker. By dropping brandnames, and making them consistent with a future world, where Budget still is a budget rent-a-car agency, and where a car manufacturer of today makes tomorrow’s skycars, he makes it all very believable. What I find amazing about him, is that when the contemporary writers still did Galactic Empires, he was weaving a future with concepts of sociology, psychology. A lot of the things he ‘predicted’ has come true in one way or another. With _Stranger_ RAH managed what he set out to do: Break away from the pulps and the juvies, as he called them, and take Sci-Fi to a more mainstream audience, away from BEM’s and laserguns. Someone else might’ve done that, but he was first. Of all huis writing, about 20% is bad to awful and the rest is pure enjoyment. Not bad for any writer. ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/12 "2002-06-30T01:53:34Z")
I started to read…um… I think it was _To Sail Beyond the Sunset_ once… is that the one that sort of devolved into lots of incestual porn or something and sort of had no plot? I got tired of Heinlein… used to like him, though. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/13 "2002-06-30T02:06:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by K364 \* > \*\*The problem with Heinlein , (other than his political, sociological stance which has been talked about elsewhere) is that he tends to have the same characters in every novel: The Young Idealist, Tough But Feminine Heroine and Crusty Old Father Figure. So, don’t try to read too many of these at a time. > \*\* A) if **Number of the Beast** is the worst novel you’ve ever read, you need to read more bad SF. Ever read anything by Pel Torro or John Norman? 😉 B) The “Heinlein only had three characters” stuff comes from a hack named Alexi Panshin who’s only claim to fame is a) trying to trash Heinlein and b) trying to rip Heinlein off. Think all his characters are the same? Let’s start with the women: Peewee, Star: Emperess of 20 Galaxies, Whatshername from **The Star Beast** , Hazel Stone…these women have _nothing_ in common outside of their gender and the fact that they’re all heroines. Heroes? Is the hero of **Double Star** the “crusty old man” or “The Young Idealist”? How 'bout “Scar” Gordon? or the troubled kid from **Time for the Stars** : he’s young, but no idealist, he’s actually damned bitter (with some cause). Fenris ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/14 "2002-06-30T02:20:29Z")
I appreciate all the replies, perspectives, and advice. I probably will go ahead with TEFL, but based on what y’all’ve said one of the juvies will be after that. Probably _Tunnel in the Sky_, since I’m familiar with _Lord of the Flies._ (See, I even read the linked thread!) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/15 "2002-06-30T04:25:12Z")
Ah, Juvenile Heinlein. _Have Space Suit, Will Travel_ is one of the few books I’ve read (and enjoyed) while trying to avoid letting people see the cover. 🙂 [_Twinkle Twinkle Little Star_](http://www.flyingturkeys.com/gsg/gsgbarzman.html) is another. (Not by Heinlein, but it has some similarities.) ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/16 "2002-06-30T08:03:23Z")
_Tunnel in the Sky_ was a good read for me, in fact, it got me to really enjoy Henlein. I had also spotted _Starship Troopers_ in my college library once while I was killing time before class, needless to say I was late for class by the time I had finished reading the book right there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/17 "2002-06-30T11:15:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*The books written after 1970 are of varing quality, and IMO none of them measured up to the dozens of great books he wrote when he was in his 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s. \*\* Just a quibble. There were two post-1970 books, “Job” and “Friday” which were very very good, and together with the first half of “Cat” constituted sort of a late Heinlein renaissance , imho. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim_r.mortiss/32/142_2.png) [@Tim\_R.Mortiss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_R.Mortiss)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/18 "2002-06-30T13:42:13Z")
Just to be different, I’ll try addressing the OP. What you are getting yourself into is, basically, a collection of short stories, linked by a back-story of a crusty old geezer telling his life story. So you really aren’t committed to 600 pages plus if you just don’t grok it. And be sure to read the very short chapters on “The Notebooks of Lazarus Long.” And I’ll add to the praise for “Glory Road”, my favorite Heinlein book of all time…Timmy ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/19 "2002-06-30T14:00:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Weird\_AL\_Einstein \* > \*\* > > Just a quibble. There were two post-1970 books, “Job” and “Friday” which were very very good, and together with the first half of “Cat” constituted sort of a late Heinlein renaissance , imho. \*\* Quibble #2: I agree with your take on his post-70s books, but would add in **To Sail Beyond The Sunset** , primarily for A) a picture of turn-of-the-century life from someone who grew up then and B) seeing many of the events of Heinlein’s future history through the eyes of Maureen Long. As a novel, it was so-so. But those bits put **Sunset** firmly into the “good” category for me. Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578/20 "2002-06-30T15:07:07Z")
K364, you give “Farnham” even one star? I like most Heinlein, including the later works that so many dislike, but I just don’t like “Farnham”. Sam Stone, good analysis. I agree, he’s great at building up a picture of a really different society without ever pausing in the telling of the story to explain stuff. Re the OP, I agree that the book is basically a group of separate stories, most of which are well worth reading. “The Tale of the Adopted Daughter” is singled out by many as being the best, but IMO the others are good, too. I like the one about “The Man who was too Lazy to Fail,” which has to have been based on Heinlein’s own experiences at Annapolis and in the Navy. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heinlein-fans-time-enough-for-love/116578.md?page=2)