# Heisman Finalists Announced **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [December 5, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197 "2011-12-05T23:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/41 "2011-12-07T18:22:08Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > … > frankly, it’s insulting that Mathieu is going to steal votes from Richardson. Mathieu couldn’t sniff Trent Richardson’s jock. Yes, he’s a scrappy, energetic football player. But he’s not the best fucking football player in the country. The idea is preposterous. Hell, he wasn’t even a consistent producer all season. i agree that mathieu is hyped as all get-out. he might not even be the best CB/return man on his team. Morris Claiborne took a kickoff to the house when they were down against WVU and has 300% the interceptions (2 int vs 6 ints). so 2 timely punt returns just vaults this guy to the top of the heisman list? this “what-have-you-done-for-me-lately” is excusable for online warriors like us but not for heisman voters. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/42 "2011-12-07T18:38:27Z")
After my ragging on KSU earlier this week, I think it’s fair to say that, while he shouldn’t win, Collin Klein (KSU’s qb) deserves mention as a real contender. Heck, looking at his [stats](http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/381823/collin-klein), I’m even more impressed. They’re not OMG-look-what-he-did! stats, but 1100 yards rushing and 1700 yards passing, and 38 touchdowns (26 rushing, 12 passing) is nothing to sneeze at. He willed KSU to a win over Miami, and the only 2 losses for KSU were to the Oklahoma schools. I can’t imagine they’re a 10-win team, maybe even 8 wins, without him. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/43 "2011-12-07T18:56:22Z")
those numbers blow Vick’s '99 season out of the water and he was 3rd in heisman voting back then (on an 11-1 sugar bowl-bound team that got flat spanked by FSU). ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/44 "2011-12-07T19:09:28Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > He did not face a consistently better defense than say Montee Ball. In fact, the one team they had in common, Penn St. Ball performed better. Ball had a better yds/carry avg. than Richardson,more yards per game and was also pulled prior to the fourth quarter seven times. > > And each Heisman voter list only three players, so I am Patrick is hardly the only one who left Richardson off. I ran some basic numbers on this last night. I’m at work now, so I don’t have it in front of me, but yes, Alabama faced better defenses all year. Bama faced a couple of dogs in the 90-something ranked North Texas defense and the 80-something ranked Ole Miss defense, but Wisky faced the 109th and 108th (IIRC) defenses. Bama and Wisky both faced some top-10 defenses, but Bama edges them out there as well. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/45 "2011-12-07T19:28:31Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I ran some basic numbers on this last night. I’m at work now, so I don’t have it in front of me, but yes, Alabama faced better defenses all year. Bama faced a couple of dogs in the 90-something ranked North Texas defense and the 80-something ranked Ole Miss defense, but Wisky faced the 109th and 108th (IIRC) defenses. Bama and Wisky both faced some top-10 defenses, but Bama edges them out there as well. I just ran the numbers as well: the rushing YPG allowed by Alabama’s opponents is 153.54, and for Wisconsin’s opponents is 164.05. Bama played some (admittedly uncharacteristically) shitty SEC defenses, too! And yet despite that near parity in opponent quality, Ball rushed for 176 more yards, and more per rush, too (6.40 vs 6.02 for Richardson). Richardson was only good enough for 6th in the country in rushing yards (4th if you only consider AQ conferences), and 5th in the country in TDs (again, 4th for AQ conferences). Ball, of course, is first in the nation in both rushing yards and TDs, with 12 more rushing TDs than Richardson – an amazing 15 more if you factor in receiving TDs for the both. In short, they played roughly equivalent defenses, and yet Ball blew Richardson out of the water. It’s not even close. P.S. Re: Penn State being much better before the scandal – before the scandal, Penn State beat Temple by 4, Indiana by 6, and the Illini mid-crash-and-burn by 3. No, **notfrommensa** , you’re just wrong, too. ETA: I used rush defense rankings, not total. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/46 "2011-12-07T19:43:19Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > I ran some basic numbers on this last night. I’m at work now, so I don’t have it in front of me, but yes, Alabama faced better defenses all year. Bama faced a couple of dogs in the 90-something ranked North Texas defense and the 80-something ranked Ole Miss defense, but Wisky faced the 109th and 108th (IIRC) defenses. Bama and Wisky both faced some top-10 defenses, but Bama edges them out there as well. Bama faced LSU and Penn State, Wisconsin faced Penn State and MIchigan State, twice. Mississippi is #19, Illinois is #21. Florida is #25, Vandy is #26, Ohio State is #27. Arkansas is #37, Nebraska is #39. Kent State #50 and Purdue is #65, and after that it hardly matters, although I will concede that down toward the bottom it favora Alabama as well. So yes, I guess they played marginally better defenses, but it is hardly a definitive, its closer to a wash. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/47 "2011-12-07T20:13:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Ball rushed for 176 more yards, and more per rush, too (6.40 vs 6.02 for Richardson). Richardson was only good enough for 6th in the country in rushing yards (4th if you only consider AQ conferences), and 5th in the country in TDs (again, 4th for AQ conferences). Ball, of course, is first in the nation in both rushing yards and TDs, with 12 more rushing TDs than Richardson – an amazing 15 more if you factor in receiving TDs for the both. > > In short, they played roughly equivalent defenses, and yet Ball blew Richardson out of the water. It’s not even close. 1. Wisky played 13 games. Bama has only played 12. 2. 176 yards is not blowing anything out of the water. That’s a very close margin. And it’s 104 yards, factoring in receiving yards, which I believe should be included. 3. The 15 more TD’s is specifically why I said Ball was more of a goal-line back. Wisky went in the air a lot between red zones, then fed it to Ball almost exclusively inside the 20. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/48 "2011-12-07T20:25:48Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > 1. Wisky played 13 games. Bama has only played 12. Which has nothing to do with yards per rush or yards per game; Ball is better in both. Also note that, despite the extra game, Ball has only _five_ more plays than Richardson (295 vs. 290). > [@](#): > > 1. 176 yards is not blowing anything out of the water. That’s a very close margin. And it’s 104 yards, factoring in receiving yards, which I believe should be included. _shrug_ Fine, but that just makes Ball’s insane TD margin between him and Richardson even crazier. And, if these are the terms you want, Ball still outrushed/outreceived Richardson by 104 yards in only _five extra plays_. > [@](#): > > 1. The 15 more TD’s is specifically why I said Ball was more of a goal-line back. Wisky went in the air a lot between red zones, then fed it to Ball almost exclusively inside the 20. How is it a goal-line back can outrush Richardson? And weird how Russell Wilson has 31 passing TDs (good for a tie for 8th in the nation) when you would have it believe that all they do is feed Ball the ball in the red zone. (I would also note that McCarron only has 16 passing TDs, which is fewer TDs than his running back! So if any team is relying on the rush to score in the red zone, it’s yours, buddy – which just makes Richardson’s 15 fewer touchdowns even that more striking). ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/49 "2011-12-07T20:27:13Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Replying to more or less all, ESPN doesn’t control the Heisman itself, they control what a lot of the voters see and hear. And I suspect that HubZilla nailed it. For some reason, starting about two weeks ago (when it became obvious that it was going to be LSU/Alabama absent a miracle), I started hearing “Honey Badger” every five minutes on any show even remotely related to college football. ESPN does control what voters see and hear. Perfect example: 1997 had two unbeaten teams that couldn’t pay each other. CBS had the Orange Bowl with Nebraska vs #3 Tennessee. ABC/ESPN gets the Rose with Michigan vs #8 Washington State. The Orange Bowl was the Alliance title game, basically the pre-BCS with the Big Ten and Pac 10 keeping to their Rose Bowl. Both NU and UM were unbeaten and both networks were hyping their respective teams as national title contenders. The problem was that Nebraska got a much tougher draw in Peyton Manning’s SEC champ Tennessee. Michigan drew a far lower-ranked Pac 10 champ, due to Rose Bowl ties. Obviously, a Nebraska win on CBS would be more impressive than Michigan’s on ABC/ESPN. So, what did ESPN do? Hyped the HECK out of Washington State. Especially a QB named Ryan Leaf, who may be better than Peyton Manning on that other network. Next thing you know, Leaf, an unknown before the season is invited to New York for the Heisman, and eventually gets so hyped that an NFL team picked him #2 in the draft!! How well did it work? Nebraska beats #3 by 25. Michigan beats #8 by only a TD. In the end, voters somehow considered it even and split the title! Oh, and that Ryan Leaf guy? ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/50 "2011-12-07T20:31:25Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > I can’t believe Tyrann Mathieu made the list and Keenum was left off. The Heisman voters continue their crusade to ensure that the trophy is reflective of… > > …whoever and whatever ESPN wants it to be. It sure as hell ain’t about the best college player in the country. Mathieu is to two-fer token for them. He is the token Defensive player and he is a token player from the #1 ranked team (and presumed National Champion) which gets them support from the LSU boosters and fanbase. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/51 "2011-12-07T20:42:36Z")
As a Baylor alumni I’ve sure enjoyed making it back for several games these last couple of years. RG III is a pleasure to watch and with a talented team surrounding him he could easily become one of the more dynamic QBs in the NFL. Thing is, he’s really just a quality person too, smart, articulate, charitable. No matter what happens we’re proud to see him considered in some very good company. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/52 "2011-12-08T17:50:30Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > As a Baylor alumni I’ve sure enjoyed making it back for several games these last couple of years. RG III is a pleasure to watch and with a talented team surrounding him he could easily become one of the more dynamic QBs in the NFL. Thing is, he’s really just a quality person too, smart, articulate, charitable. No matter what happens we’re proud to see him considered in some very good company. I read that the kid graduated last year with a degree in politcal science; will get his masters degree in communications in the spring; plans to try out for the Olympic track team and compete in the 400M hurdles in London for the USA; and if he returns for his Senior year plans on attending law school part time. When asked after the Texas win about his plans to go pro or not, he said that money would not be a factor in that decision. What a class guy! Baylor should be very proud to have him associated with that school. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/53 "2011-12-09T17:08:10Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > 1. The 15 more TD’s is specifically why I said Ball was more of a goal-line back. Wisky went in the air a lot between red zones, then fed it to Ball almost exclusively inside the 20. Sounds like they gave it to him for a reason. 15 more TD’s is a big deal. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/54 "2011-12-11T20:53:56Z")
So, IMHO, the Heisman voters actually got it right this year. RGIII is a great kid with a bright future and he totally deserved this award. Luck was unimpressive and Richardson just…the numbers weren’t there to make him “that guy” on a team that was top-to-bottom talented. It’s not necessarily fair, but there it is. In any case, this a Heisman that the Athletic Club is not going to have to worry about being embarrased over. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/55 "2011-12-11T22:06:45Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > So, IMHO, the Heisman voters actually got it right this year. RGIII is a great kid with a bright future and he totally deserved this award. Luck was unimpressive and Richardson just…the numbers weren’t there to make him “that guy” on a team that was top-to-bottom talented. It’s not necessarily fair, but there it is. > > In any case, this a Heisman that the Athletic Club is not going to have to worry about being embarrased over. Luck had a fantastic season. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/56 "2011-12-11T22:14:50Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Luck had a fantastic season. ? The only stat that was better this season than last was TDs. In pretty much every other category, 2011 was a slight drop off from 2010. Unless you’re suggesting the Heisman should be a career award.\* \*Which frankly, I have _no_ problem with that. But they should make that the rule and only allow seniors, if that’s the case. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/57 "2011-12-11T22:16:56Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > ? The only stat that was better this season than last was TDs. In pretty much every other category, 2011 was a slight drop off from 2010. Unless you’re suggesting the Heisman should be a career award.\* > > \*Which frankly, I have _no_ problem with that. But they should make that the rule and only allow seniors, if that’s the case. He had a fantastic season last year too. Who said anything about the Heisman? ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/58 "2011-12-11T22:37:00Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > He had a fantastic season last year too. > > Who said anything about the Heisman? Oh. Misunderstanding then. I meant unimpressive in the sense of the Heisman vote. You know, the whole topic of the thread and all. Helps to read the OP and replies before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/59 "2011-12-11T22:49:22Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Oh. Misunderstanding then. I meant unimpressive in the sense of the Heisman vote. You know, the whole topic of the thread and all. Helps to read the OP and replies before posting. Whatever, nothing said in this thread indicates you’re not making a judgement about his season as a whole. It’s perfectly reasonable to think that someone, given Luck’s hype, would think less of a merely great season. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Sensitive](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Darth\_Sensitive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Sensitive)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197/60 "2011-12-11T23:31:11Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > As a Baylor alumni I’ve sure enjoyed making it back for several games these last couple of years. RG III is a pleasure to watch and with a talented team surrounding him he could easily become one of the more dynamic QBs in the NFL. Thing is, he’s really just a quality person too, smart, articulate, charitable. No matter what happens we’re proud to see him considered in some very good company. He’s good, but I don’t see him as Heisman worthy. He looked very pedestrian against Kansas, lost them the game against K-State (I think? it was a while ago) with a late pick, and looked downright bad (and less classy than he has in other games) against OSU (and their “terrible, horrible, no good, very bad defense”) until after the starters were out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/heisman-finalists-announced/605197.md?page=4)