# Helen Thomas Forcibly Retired **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299 "2010-06-07T17:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/181 "2010-06-08T16:47:12Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > ethnic cleansing (as the term is typically understood in everyday speech) requires that, you know, they get dead. Or are you suggesting that that’s what she really wants now? Or are you using the “forced removal” meaning of the term? Which she wasn’t really advocating, either. But I digress. > > regardless, the point is that Alessan demands some crystal clear distinction between criticizing a body politic (in a democracy, no less) and criticizing the people (who make up that politic, in a democracy) as it pertains to this situation. And if you fail to distinguish, you are a racist. > > I’m just checking to see if he demands that distinction in every other international relations-esque interaction, where conflation of the government and the people is routinely made. Um, no. “Ethnic cleansing” means removal of people from an area, so that it is “cleansed” of a particular group, at the instigation of some outsider. The “removal” is sometimes by killing them, but that’s not a necessary part of the definition - deportation will do as well. > [@](#): > > ethnic cleansing > n. > The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide. > **[ethnic cleansing](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethnic+cleansing)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of ethnic cleansing by The Free Dictionary Calling for an identifiable group of people to get the hell out of where they happen to live is not, by any stretch of the imagination, similar to criticizing the actions of a state’s government. ---
**Author:** ![yams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/848f3c/32.png) [@yams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yams)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/182 "2010-06-08T16:50:27Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m perfectly willing to accept the Palestinians as an ethnic group. But answer me this: if I were to declare myself to be anti-Palestinian, would people here call me racist? Hi **Alessan**! If you were to declare yourself anti-Palestinian, would that mean you disagree with Palestinian claims and politics, or would that mean that you would not want a Palestinian neighbor? Do you think someone could claim to be anti-Israel without being an anti-Semite? Also, this is kind of a hijack, but what is the average Israeli take on the whole Israel-Palestine debacle? Do most people just want to be done with fighting and get on with living together already, or are people ok with the fighting because they agree with the end-goal, or is there even such thing as an “average Israeli” take on the whole thing? Thank you! love, yams!! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/183 "2010-06-08T16:51:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Every time this comes up, I sorta scratch my head. > > Assume for the moment it is true that lefties can be “anti-Israeli” but not “racist”. What difference does that make? Why is “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a national origin some how morally superior, or at least not as blameworthy, as “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a skin colour? > > Both to my mind appear to be subsets of the same thing - bigotry. Criticism of Israel is not grounded in any feelings about national origin, ethnicity or any thing related to genetic, cultural or religious identity. It’s criticism of _actions and policies_. It’s not hostility towards an ethnic identity but a disagreement with _behavior_. That’s the difference. It is illegitimate to try to deflect criticism of _behavior_ by trying to pretend it’s an attack on race. Did you support the apartheid regime in South Africa? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/184 "2010-06-08T16:52:48Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Um, no. “Ethnic cleansing” means removal of people from an area, so that it is “cleansed” of a particular group, **at the instigation of some outsider**. The “removal” is sometimes by killing them, but that’s not a necessary part of the definition - deportation will do as well. [emphasis added] she said “should” and she wasn’t calling for anyone to do anything. if you’re going to play games with inflammatory terms like “ethnic cleansing” then i’m going to play semantic counter games. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/185 "2010-06-08T16:54:19Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Well, I have it on good authority that there are a hell of a lot of Jews in Israel. And it’s not a huge leap to think that by telling the inhabitants of that country to “go home” to Germany, Poland etc. she was not referring to Israeli Arabs. > > Gotta love **Diogenes** ’ fantasy about Israel being founded on “racial entitlement, ethnic cleansing and apartheid”. I’ll do a **Diogenes** and ask him to cite the portion of the U.N. mandate that established any of those things - though he might try to squeak out “racial entitlement” and “apartheid” from the fact that the mandate created two states, one Jewish and one Arab. And “ethnic cleansing” would apply to the attempt by the Palestinian Arabs and their allies to destroy the Jewish state at its inception. But oops, there I go again, conflating Israel and Jews. :rolleyes: The UN did establish racial entitlement. I don’t see how that’s debatable. The ethnic cleansing and apartheid, Israel did mostly on its own. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/186 "2010-06-08T16:55:59Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But anti-Israelis are constantly invoking ancestral claims. Palestinians should be given land back because their ancestors lived there. No, the argument is that Palestinians should not have had land taken away and copntinue to have land taken away that they owned and own _currently_, not in some distant, mythological past. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/187 "2010-06-08T16:56:59Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Does it matter if it is racist or not, it is pretty offensive to tell anyone to go back to where they came from. Tell that to the State of Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/188 "2010-06-08T17:03:43Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, the argument is that Palestinians should not have had land taken away and copntinue to have land taken away that they owned and own _currently_, not in some distant, mythological past. Well, yeah, but as **Alessan** points out, Israel just has to wait out the last survivors and then the problem will be gone. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/189 "2010-06-08T17:10:31Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Um, no. “Ethnic cleansing” means removal of people from an area, so that it is “cleansed” of a particular group, at the instigation of some outsider. The “removal” is sometimes by killing them, but that’s not a necessary part of the definition - deportation will do as well. > > [Ethnic cleansing - definition of ethnic cleansing by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ethnic+cleansing) > > Calling for an identifiable group of people to get the hell out of where they happen to live is not, by any stretch of the imagination, similar to criticizing the actions of a state’s government. She didn’t say that they should be _forced_ to leave. She said they should fuck off on their own. At her age, I wouldn’t be surprised if Israel still seems like a brand new state to her, full of freshed faced immigrants. Her statement doesn’t make logical sense anymore, but I think that’s because it’s still 1948 in her mind. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/190 "2010-06-08T17:21:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Well, yeah, but as **Alessan** points out, Israel just has to wait out the last survivors and then the problem will be gone. Worked for America. We’re just following your lead. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/191 "2010-06-08T17:27:14Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Criticism of Israel is not grounded in any feelings about national origin, ethnicity or any thing related to genetic, cultural or religious identity. It’s criticism of _actions and policies_. It’s not hostility towards an ethnic identity but a disagreement with _behavior_. That’s the difference. It is illegitimate to try to deflect criticism of _behavior_ by trying to pretend it’s an attack on race. > > Did you support the apartheid regime in South Africa? Telling the Jews to get the hell out of Israel isn’t by any stretch of the imagination a critique of the “actions and policies” of the Israeli _state_. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a disagreement over Israel’s “behaviour” as a nation, and pretending it does isn’t so much “illigitimate” as it is simply bizzare. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/192 "2010-06-08T17:31:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > She didn’t say that they should be _forced_ to leave. She said they should fuck off on their own. So if I say “the Mexicans should get the hell out of Arizona and go back where they came from”, I’m _not_ calling for ethnic cleansing of Mexicans from Arizona in your view - because I’m simply suggesting that they leave _on their own_? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/193 "2010-06-08T17:33:22Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > she said “should” and she wasn’t calling for anyone to do anything. > > if you’re going to play games with inflammatory terms like “ethnic cleansing” then i’m going to play semantic counter games. So, “Mexicans - get the hell out of Arizona!” isn’t in any way offensive to you? Doesn’t raise _any_ concerns? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/194 "2010-06-08T17:36:57Z")
A "lefty’ who says something stupid gets fried by the press and loses her job. Is that not enough for you? Is dancing on graves a fun sport? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/195 "2010-06-08T17:37:44Z")
You can wave your hands about it all you want, but the context makes it clear that Thomas was referencing the formation of the state by Europe and the US, and that was the primary action she was hostile to. Trying to deflect her comments as antisemitism or bigotry is candy-ass in my opinion. Israelis and Israel defenders would do much better if they actually took the criticisms head on for what they are. People in the US see Palestinians behind barbed wire fences and Israeli tanks pointed at children. If you want us to keep giving Israel money and support, explain why we should be ok with those things, don’t just call us racists and then ask us for more money. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/196 "2010-06-08T17:38:46Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So if I say “the Mexicans should get the hell out of Arizona and go back where they came from”, I’m _not_ calling for ethnic cleansing of Mexicans from Arizona in your view - because I’m simply suggesting that they leave _on their own_? That is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/197 "2010-06-08T17:39:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So, “Mexicans - get the hell out of Arizona!” isn’t in any way offensive to you? Doesn’t raise _any_ concerns? It doesn’t raise any concerns for the same American conservatives who are crowing about Helen Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/198 "2010-06-08T17:40:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So, “Mexicans - get the hell out of Arizona!” isn’t in any way offensive to you? Doesn’t raise _any_ concerns? I’m not going to accuse the person who made that statement of calling for an ethnic cleansing, no. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/199 "2010-06-08T17:40:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That is correct. Fine - completely bizzare, but fine. Now for the follow-up - do you see anything at all offensive in such a statement? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/200 "2010-06-08T17:41:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > So if I say “the Mexicans should get the hell out of Arizona and go back where they came from”, I’m _not_ calling for ethnic cleansing of Mexicans from Arizona in your view - because I’m simply suggesting that they leave _on their own_? Let’s not take this analogy for more than it is. Dio’s reference to the AZ law is only addressed at illegal immigrants. Arizona has a large number of citizens of Hispanic decent, and those are not being asked to leave. I don’t think it’s reasonable to call the deportation of illegal immigrants “ethnic cleansing”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=11)