# Helen Thomas Forcibly Retired **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299 "2010-06-07T17:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/201 "2010-06-08T17:42:08Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s been 62 years. How many of the former inhabitants are still alive? Does this fine piece of argument apply to the artwork stolen by Nazi’s in WW2 and then returned to dead people’s relatives? :rolleyes: Again, what is really entertaining is how hollow any discussion re: Israel is. Whatever the outcome, rest assured Israel will be painted as a victim using arguments that inevitably come down to the same common denominators and while principles espoused sound great in general, they only apply specifically to Israelis. No other people are worthy of those principles for one or another reason. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/202 "2010-06-08T17:44:07Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You can wave your hands about it all you want, but the context makes it clear that Thomas was referencing the formation of the state by Europe and the US, and that was the primary action she was hostile to. > > Trying to deflect her comments as antisemitism or bigotry is candy-ass in my opinion. Israelis and Israel defenders would do much better if they actually took the criticisms head on for what they are. People in the US see Palestinians behind barbed wire fences and Israeli tanks pointed at children. If you want us to keep giving Israel money and support, explain why we should be ok with those things, don’t just call us racists and then ask us for more money. Trying to support an obviously ignorant bit of bigotry as some sort of code for a deep critique requiring “deflecting” is candy-ass IMO. And no-one is calling _you_ a “racist” or “bigot” because of what _she_ said. Are you empathizing perhaps a trifle too much? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/203 "2010-06-08T17:45:11Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Fine - completely bizzare, but fine. > > Now for the follow-up - do you see anything at all offensive in such a statement? I don’t think “offended” is the right word. I don’t get offended by much of anything. I’d call it stupid. It’s not really analogous to Israel, though, because Mexicans haven’t taken over the government, established Arizona as a Mexican state with special entitlements for Mexicans only, forced native born, non-Mexican Americans off their own land and ghettoized them behind barbed wire fences. If the Mexcans did all that, I’d want them to go back where they came from too. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/204 "2010-06-08T17:46:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Let’s not take this analogy for more than it is. Dio’s reference to the AZ law is only addressed at illegal immigrants. Arizona has a large number of citizens of Hispanic decent, and those are not being asked to leave. I don’t think it’s reasonable to call the deportation of illegal immigrants “ethnic cleansing”. The analogy here would be to requesting the deportation (or I suppose the “voluntary leaving” 😃 ) of all persons of Hispanic discent - that would be a parallel to requesting that the Jews go “back to where they came from”. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/205 "2010-06-08T17:47:46Z")
Pretty much the entire Middle East consists of countries “made up” by the Powers That Were after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Israel was a bit of a latecomer, as a country, but was created by the United Nations. Wars were fought, and we have facts on the ground now. This isn’t really different than many other countries out there. If we had it to do over again, would I endorse another option? Maybe. But that’s immaterial to the present. Israel isn’t going away without a bloody, bloody war that almost certainly would involve the entire Middle East, with the West being drawn is as well. We’re not going there. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/206 "2010-06-08T17:49:47Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > I will admit that my jaw dropped reading her comments. Not that she held them, necessarily – journalists come with their own set of deeply set biases, too – but that a person who made her living in the media was so reckless with her words. > > You can split hairs and say it wasn’t racist to say that the Jews should go home. But Helen Thomas knows the power of words and knew that she was treading on thin ice. > > So either she just didn’t care or her brain isn’t functioning properly. Either way, you simply can’t say things like that and keep your job in the mainstream media. It’s time for the old gal to retire. Is it at all possible that she knew exactly what she was doing? Any chance that she had already decided to retire, said to herself “Fuck it, I’m going out with a bang,” and said something she’s probably thought for years but knew she couldn’t utter in public? Just throwin’ that out there… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/207 "2010-06-08T17:53:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Trying to support an obviously ignorant bit of bigotry as some sort of code for a deep critique requiring “deflecting” is candy-ass IMO. You’re doing it again. In America we call this “playing the rcae card.” > [@](#): > > And no-one is calling _you_ a “racist” or “bigot” because of what _she_ said. Are you empathizing perhaps a trifle too much? Did you read upthread where I said that my biological father is Jewish? No, I’m not empathizing, and suggesting I’m an antisemite myself does not do anything to dispel my perceptions that you’re deflecting with the race card. For the record, I think antisemitism is not only toxic and vile, but utterly moronic and senseless from an intellectual standpoint, as is all other racial bigotry. I am incapable of empathizing with it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/208 "2010-06-08T17:53:42Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t think “offended” is the right word. I don’t get offended by much of anything. I’d call it stupid. > It’s not really analogous to Israel, though, because Mexicans haven’t taken over the government, established Arizona as a Mexican state with special entitlements for Mexicans only, forced native born, non-Mexican Americans off their own land and ghettoized them behind barbed wire fences. If the Mexcans did all that, I’d want them to go back where they came from too. Strikes me that what you are saying is that it may be stupid, but it’s understandable - in your view, based on the narrative you believe is accurate and unbiased. This doesn’t distinguish it from most other forms of bigotry, though. Most bigotry is, in fact, understandable. Most bigots think that their bigotry is perfectly rational, a reaction to reality, rather than simply based on irrational and overblown generalizations. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/209 "2010-06-08T17:58:51Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s not really analogous to Israel, though, because Mexicans haven’t taken over the government, established Arizona as a Mexican state with special entitlements for Mexicans only, forced native born, non-Mexican Americans off their own land and ghettoized them behind barbed wire fences. If the Mexcans did all that, I’d want them to go back where they came from too. Replace “Mexicans” with “Americans”, and you’ve got the history of the great state of Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/210 "2010-06-08T17:59:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’re doing it again. In America we call this “playing the rcae card.” No, I’m not. > [@](#): > > Did you read upthread where I said that my biological father is Jewish? No, I’m not empathizing, and suggesting I’m an antisemite myself does not do anything to dispel my perceptions that you’re deflecting with the race card. > > For the record, I think antisemitism is not only toxic and vile, but utterly moronic and senseless from an intellectual standpoint, as is all other racial bigotry. I am incapable of empathizing with it. You completely miss my meaning. I’m _not_ claiming that you are empathizing with _being an antisemite_. I’m saying you are taking to heart a specific criticism of this person’s statements under discussion, what with this “don’t just call **us** racists” crap. You are empathizing too much with **her**. **You** aren’t under discussion, no-one is calling **you** a racist, and the fact you have Jewish ancestors is totally irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/211 "2010-06-08T18:00:55Z")
No, it’s not bigotry. If the Mexicans did everything I described above, I wuldn’t be hostile to them and wantthem to leave because they’re Mexicans, but because of their behavior. Thomas’ mistake was in not drawing a distinction between what she perceived as invading Europeans and indigenous Israeli Jews (and yes, I know that even that distinction is all but non-existent now after 60+ years), but I think that was a result of sloppy articulation on her part. That particular comment ahd followed directly from a comment about what she perceived as the arrogance of the west in forming the state of Israel in the first place, and “they should go back” stemmed from that thought. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/212 "2010-06-08T18:02:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Replace “Mexicans” with “Americans”, and you’ve got the history of the great state of Texas. I can’t disagree. I’d be fine with all those rednecks in Texas going back where they came from. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/213 "2010-06-08T18:04:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > No, I’m not. > > You completely miss my meaning. > > I’m _not_ claiming that you are empathizing with _being an antisemite_. I’m saying you are taking to heart a specific criticism of this person’s statements under discussion, what with this “don’t just call **us** racists” crap. You are empathizing too much with **her**. I don’t empathize with her comment, or even agree with it, but I do empathize with being piled on for an unpopular opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/214 "2010-06-08T18:06:53Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, it’s not bigotry. If the Mexicans did everything I described above, I wuldn’t be hostile to them and wantthem to leave because they’re Mexicans, but because of their behavior. > > Thomas’ mistake was in not drawing a distinction between what she perceived as invading Europeans and indigenous Israeli Jews (and yes, I know that even that distinction is all but non-existent now after 60+ years), but I think that was a result of sloppy articulation on her part. Theat particular comment ahd followed directly from a comment about what she perceived as the arrogance of the west in forming the state of Israel in th first place, and “they should go back” stemmed from that thought. Much bigotry is attributable to sloppy attribution of generalities, based on the behaviour of some members of the group. For example, because some Jewish Israelis did something she disapproved of sixty odd years ago - _all_ Jewish Israelis are now tarred by the same brush. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/215 "2010-06-08T18:07:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m sorry, but that’s not how it works here. I stated my position and presented several arguments supporting it. If you disagree, then debate me. Don’t start demanding arguments from authority - that’s the coward’s way out. If you have a cite disproving my position (that Israelis can be considered an ethnic group), then let’s see it. Sorry, but you have started a new controversy entirely based on your assertion that Israelis are an ethnic group. You asserted that Israelis were an ethnic group. I asked if that was so because I was curious. First you demand that I define ethnic group, which I did, and then you decide that reliance on proper authorities is an inappropriate way to have a discussion on what an ethnic group is, which is not a reasonable way of having a discussion on whether a group of people is an ethnic group. I was actually curious as to whether Israelis as an ethnic group was a real concept I had somehow missed. It is apparently something you made up entirely, in which case I say, good for you. Write a scholarly article on it, have it published in an anthropological journal and then you are on your way to having others repeat your science and have it recognized. I asked a question about whether Israelis were an ethnic group. It seems to be a concept original with you, which somewhat answers the question I was asking. I was not looking for a debate on whether Israelis were an ethnic group. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/216 "2010-06-08T18:10:20Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I can’t disagree. I’d be fine with all those rednecks in Texas going back where they came from. See, to me this makes no sense. None of “those rednecks” were the ones who turfed the Mexicans out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/217 "2010-06-08T18:13:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > See, to me this makes no sense. None of “those rednecks” were the ones who turfed the Mexicans out. Not to mention most of those “rednecks” are from… Texas! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/218 "2010-06-08T18:16:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > See, to me this makes no sense. None of “those rednecks” were the ones who turfed the Mexicans out. And none of the Palestinian inhabitants of Israel pre-1948 had anything to do with turfing out the Jews in 70 CE. That’s the problem with asserting ancestral claims on territory. It never ends. There’s always a prior claim, and there’s always an immediate claim. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/219 "2010-06-08T18:21:05Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Every time this comes up, I sorta scratch my head. > > Assume for the moment it is true that lefties can be “anti-Israeli” but not “racist”. What difference does that make? Why is “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a national origin some how morally superior, or at least not as blameworthy, as “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a skin colour? > > Both to my mind appear to be subsets of the same thing - bigotry. In a Democracy the people themselves are responsible for the actions of the government. All the people, even the opposition. Thus, the American people are responsible for torture of suspected Al Queda members. We have the power to stop it and we do not cry out sufficiently loud. Same with Israel. Not the same with North Korea. The people have no say with no power and not even theoretical sovereignty. I am anti-Israeli because of their ethnic cleansing policies. Should they stop these policies, I would cease being anti-Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/220 "2010-06-08T18:23:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Worked for America. We’re just following your lead. And it continues to be, as it always will be, a source of shame for us and bitterness for the descendants of the Indians. Only in the last few decades have we started to make reparations, recognize and enforce their property rights, and undertake affirmative action efforts of any significance to make it possible to set the old antagonisms aside and live as a true national community. I hope you do “follow that lead”, but that you learn from that example and all the countless other historical examples that somehow you deny apply to your own example (while still complaining that Israel is being asked to follow rules nobody else is, rules you fail to articulate. :rolleyes: ). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=12)