# Helen Thomas Forcibly Retired **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299 "2010-06-07T17:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/281 "2010-06-09T12:50:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > A UN General Assembly tomorrow that declared the miraculous, cancer-fighting powers of jarlsberg cheese would have no less of an effect on reality than UNGAR 181. I think not. According to [this impeccable source](http://www.eatwild.com/cla.html), the aging of Jarlsberg cheese renders its content of CLA lower than non-aged cheeses and thus impairs its cancer-righting ability. And why, pray tell, is Israel so little known for its cheeses compared to other nations? Could it be that TPTB in Israel actually want to promote cancer to aid in Ethnic Cleansing? You can’t prove it isn’t so. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/282 "2010-06-09T13:43:24Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Oppose. > > My comment about rednecks getting out of Texas was a joke. I also don’t think Jews should leave Israel, but the claims of the Palestinians are not exactly ancient. > > At this point I agree. Israel is entrenched, it’s established, it isn’t going anywhere and it’s an ally. I don’t want Israel to go away, I just want it to treat the Palestinians better (a whole different debate, I know, but we’ll never resolve that here). I don’t know how many times I can say it. I don’t _agree_ with what Helen Thomas said. I’m only contesting the assertion that it necessarily makes her a bigot or an antisemite. > > Maybe it would be helpful to know that she is of Arab descent (Lebanese, I believe), and that she has personal family history in pre-1948 Palestine. She sees the creation of Israel as a presumptuous and callous act by arrogant European countries (plus the US). Agree or disagree with that, the sentoment is not grounded in racial, religious or ethnic bigotry. It’s defensive hostility towards what she perceives as an invasion and occupation. I really don’t think it would have mattered what color, race or religion the perceived “invaders” were. The reason I contest the assertion that what she said wasn’t any sort of bigotry is that making unreasonable, negative and ignorant generalizations as to a whole group of people, even when based on quite legitimate grievances, is what “bigotry” _is_. An irrational hatred based purely on racial or ethnic animus totally divorced from historic context is actually a rather unusual form of bigotry - most has at least some basis (real or fictive) in some sort of alleged grievance. Explaining the grievance does not make what is bigotry into non-bigotry, it merely explains where the bigotry is coming from. For example - if right after 9/11 someone had said “all Muslims should get out of America and go the hell back to where they came from!” I’d consider that bigotry, because even though a lot of anger at the perps of 9/11 is totally understandable in the immediate aftermath of a terrorist attack, it is irrational to blame “Muslims” as a whole for it. One could point out that almost no actual Muslims in America had anything to do with the attack, that Muslims are not a unified whole (what one Muslim does in the name of his religion does not thereby reflect on all Muslims, everywhere), and that it makes no sense to spread the blame in this way, that most Muslims in America were in fact born there - in short, one would react in the exact same way as one would react to _her_ comments. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/283 "2010-06-09T14:37:19Z")
I think everybody is over complicating her remarks. The nexus of middle east problems is the existence of Israel. If it didn’t exist, if all the occupants left, much of the animosity in the area would subside. Of course that is impossible. There are a lot of Israelis who were born there and it is their home. Most of the ones that migrated there long ago are dead. She was just being flip ,suggesting if Israel didn’t exist ,there would not be that problem. In no way was she actually advocating a policy of shipping the inhabitants back to where their original families came from. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/284 "2010-06-09T15:17:41Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I don’t disagree with any of that. There is an evolving Iraqi national identity ongoing now. I am not an anthropologist or a sociologist, so I don’t attempt to make any kind of designation, but there is this: we are all people; racial and ethnic identities are arbitrary social constructs, and rather than concentrate our ire on thoughtless and perceived racist remarks by an old woman, perhaps our time would be better spent treating all parties in the ME clusterfuck as people, with essential human rights (such as the right to clean water, humane treatment, trial by jury and the rule of law etc). To want parity and justice for the Palestinians does not make one an anti-Semite. > > In a sense (and this is an inflammatory remark), the Israeli policy seems to be “do as we were done by”, which is hardly a mature, rational approach to peace. This is not to say that the Palestinians are “right” and the Israelis are “wrong” (by them I mean their policies). But I think it’s safe to say that there will be no ME peace until Israeli stops with its paranoia and constant provocation. I’m no fan of Hamas, but is the government Israel and the world has to deal with. How much better would it be to engage them, debate with them, build trust and try to sway them via friendship instead of sanctions and refusing cement and wheelchairs and forcing an entire supply system via tunnel? Per Israel, they won’t deal with terror. But they are being disingenuous in this because they deal with terror every day, due to their current policies. > > Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. Therefore, IMO, the policies of Israel is insane. > ETA: you got it, **elbows**. ☹ It appears that we are much much closer in our idea than we thought. And you’re right, **elbows** got it. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/285 "2010-06-09T15:19:32Z")
The bigger question to me is: when she dies, does she get to be roomies with Marge Schott in heaven? Also, I have it on good word that she’s just accepted a speaking tour of Iranian universities and concert halls at the personal invitation of President Ahmadinejad himself. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/286 "2010-06-09T15:51:11Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > I think everybody is over complicating her remarks. The nexus of middle east problems is the existence of Israel. If it didn’t exist, if all the occupants left, much of the animosity in the area would subside. > Of course that is impossible. There are a lot of Israelis who were born there and it is their home. Most of the ones that migrated there long ago are dead. > She was just being flip ,suggesting if Israel didn’t exist ,there would not be that problem. In no way was she actually advocating a policy of shipping the inhabitants back to where their original families came from. How about something like 'the nexus of the American racial problem is the existance of Blacks. If Blacks didn’t exist, if they all left, many of the racial issues in the US would disappear. Of course that’s not possible. Most US Blacks were born there and it is their home. Calling for all Blacks to leave America is just being flip, suggesting if it were not for the unfortunate legacy of slavery, there wouldn’t be a problem … '. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/287 "2010-06-09T15:54:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We have the state of Israel, which is not going away. We can have a state of Palestine if the Palestinians recognize they have to negotiate the borders and live in peace with Israel. It’s unclear to me they accept that. I think one of the things that annoys some people is that Israel insists that the negotiations be on their terms. Terms that reward the building of Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and in other places that are designed to nudge the borders of the two state solution. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/288 "2010-06-09T16:00:39Z")
> [@sleeping](#): > > they have gone from the morally schizophrenic “crying and shooting,” to starving millions, and now to murdering those who attempt to deliver aid to the dispossessed. There is some debate regarding whether millions are indded starving or merely suffering from malnutrition :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/289 "2010-06-09T16:07:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There is some debate regarding whether millions are indded starving or merely suffering from malnutrition :rolleyes: Remember in the other thread where evidence was produced that conclusively demonstrated that the inhabitants of Gaza were in _every respect measurable_ more healthy now, under the blockade, than they were before the blockade was imposed? Longer lifespan, less infant mortality, etc.? How that can be described as “starving millions”, I’m not sure. And yes, I was surprised by that evidence, too. Like you, I’d bought into the oft-repeated narrative of suffering. But the objective evidence doesn’t support it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/290 "2010-06-09T16:11:24Z")
That reminds me of how the American South used to say that the negroes were better off under slavery than they were without it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/291 "2010-06-09T16:18:47Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think one of the things that annoys some people is that Israel insists that the negotiations be on their terms. Terms that reward the building of Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and in other places that are designed to nudge the borders of the two state solution. Both sides have conditions that they consider non-negotiable. Personally, I would like to see the Israelis stop building settlements. But I don’t see the Israeli side as any more intransigent in it’s conditions than the Palestinians. I do agree that there is a sizable minority on both sides that does not want peace with the other side. But lumping all the blame on Israel isn’t right, and it isn’t what is going to move the process forward. Nor is telling the Israelis to go home to Germany, which is what this thread is actually about. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/292 "2010-06-09T16:18:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > That reminds me of how the American South used to say that the negroes were better off under slavery than they were without it. Not a very good analogy. I’m not claiming that the Gazans should be happy that they are blockaded - I’m arguing, based on objective evidence, to refute a specific claim - that they are “starving” or “malnourished” as a result of the blockade. They aren’t, and claiming that they are is, simply put, incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/293 "2010-06-09T16:28:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Not a very good analogy. I’m not claiming that the Gazans should be happy that they are blockaded - I’m arguing, based on objective evidence, to refute a specific claim - that they are “starving” or “malnourished” as a result of the blockade. > > They aren’t, and claiming that they are is, simply put, incorrect. From memory, there were references claiming IIRC 70% of kids being anaemic and an arseload having vitamin A deficiency due to diet. That is malnutrition. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/294 "2010-06-09T16:30:01Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Both sides here have historic and religious ties to this piece of real estate. Both have blood on their hands for the death of their neighbours. Neither can be trusted, or relied upon. We have no reasonable way of knowing who is telling the truth in any given instance. They are both equally guilty of two faced-ness and duplicity. They have both played the bully. The world is weary of listening to either side scream ‘they started it’ like school yard children. > > If they want to sacrifice yet another generation to hatred and loathing, let them. There is, quite evidently, little anyone can do about it. > > If they want peace, let them create peace, it doesn’t just rain down from the sky, and nothing we can do is going to make it rain. The most sane and on the money post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/295 "2010-06-09T16:32:43Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > From memory, there were references claiming IIRC 70% of kids being anaemic and an arseload having vitamin A deficiency due to diet. That is malnutrition. Again from memory (I could be wrong in this, it’s a long-ass thread so I haven’t actually looked it up), my recollection was that the rates of anemia and deficiency were not greater than in Gaza prior to the blockade. Moreover, I definitely remember that life expectancy went up and rate of infant mortality went down during the blockade. How is that consistent with ‘starvation’ resulting from the blockade? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/296 "2010-06-09T16:43:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again from memory (I could be wrong in this, it’s a long-ass thread so I haven’t actually looked it up), my recollection was that the rates of anemia and deficiency were not greater than in Gaza prior to the blockade. I don’t remember seeing a claim that anemia was down. It was cited pretty definitively that people in Gaza are living longer and have lower infant mortality today than they did 10 years ago. (I posted some of those cites.) It’s possible that conditions have changed recently, maybe because some items were put on the blockade list. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/297 "2010-06-09T17:03:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t remember seeing a claim that anemia was down. It was cited pretty definitively that people in Gaza are living longer and have lower infant mortality today than they did 10 years ago. (I posted some of those cites.) It’s possible that conditions have changed recently, maybe because some items were put on the blockade list. I don’t know. Claim I recall (again could be wrong - I’d rather be wrong than have to look through 1,000 posts again!) was not that it was down, but rather that it wasn’t up. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/298 "2010-06-09T17:23:31Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Maybe Israel would be better off taking her advice. Israel doesn’t have to dissolve herself, she can abandon zionism and the injustices that are necessary to maintain it. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/299 "2010-06-09T17:31:18Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Israel doesn’t have to dissolve herself, she can abandon zionism and the injustices that are necessary to maintain it. You keep using the words “Zionist” and “Zionism” in a manner that shows you have no clue what either mean, or you’re deliberately misusing them. Saying that Israel won’t have to be dissolved, it’ll just abandon "Zionism"m is either ignorant nonsense or willful doubletalk. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have self-determination and a homeland. Saying that should end is, indeed, saying that Israel should be dissolved. It’s like saying you don’t believe that America should be dissolved but its government and national identity should be removed and it should be ruled by Mexico and Canada in the future. Nobody would offer that position seriously, let alone take it seriously if offered. And yet you evidently offer the same deal for Israel, with a straight face. Likewise claiming that Jews, out of all the peoples of the world who are afforded self determination cannot be granted it without “injustice” being necessary is an absurdity. Tellingly, granting the Palestinians self determination doesn’t entail any “injustice” in your view. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/300 "2010-06-09T17:40:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I just don’t think that Helen Thomas’ remarks were made _because_ of their ethnicity, but because of old resentments over the formation of Israel in the first place. I think a lot of the resentment in the region stems from the events surrounding Israel’s creation and has been perpetuated by the Palestinian refugee crisis. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=16)