# Helen Thomas Forcibly Retired **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299 "2010-06-07T17:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/301 "2010-06-09T17:42:22Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How about something like 'the nexus of the American racial problem is the existance of Blacks. If Blacks didn’t exist, if they all left, many of the racial issues in the US would disappear. Of course that’s not possible. Most US Blacks were born there and it is their home. Calling for all Blacks to leave America is just being flip, suggesting if it were not for the unfortunate legacy of slavery, there wouldn’t be a problem … '. You can’t seriously be analogizing how the jewish population arrived in israel with how the black population arrived in teh new World? Once again not endorsing the idea of moving all the jews out of Israel but they weren’t shipped there on slaveships against their will. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/302 "2010-06-09T17:44:18Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Remember in the other thread where evidence was produced that conclusively demonstrated that the inhabitants of Gaza were in _every respect measurable_ more healthy now, under the blockade, than they were before the blockade was imposed? Longer lifespan, less infant mortality, etc.? So Hamas is good for gaza? > [@](#): > > And yes, I was surprised by that evidence, too. Like you, I’d bought into the oft-repeated narrative of suffering. But the objective evidence doesn’t support it. I’m going to stick with the assessments of the UN, the red cross and Amnesty International. It may not be a humanitarian crisis of Darfur or North korea proportions but I don’t know which international humanitarian organization has said that thngs are pretty much OK in gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/303 "2010-06-09T17:49:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You keep using the words “Zionist” and “Zionism” in a manner that shows you have no clue what either mean, or you’re deliberately misusing them. Saying that Israel won’t have to be dissolved, it’ll just abandon "Zionism"m is either ignorant nonsense or willful doubletalk. Zionism is the belief that the Jews should have self-determination and a homeland. Saying that should end is, indeed, saying that Israel should be dissolved. It’s like saying you don’t believe that America should be dissolved but its government and national identity should be removed and it should be ruled by Mexico and Canada in the future. Israel could abandon the archaic notion of racial entitlement, give all residents full citizenship and just have a United State of Palestine where ethnicity is irrelevant. The notion that rights should be determined by race is as repulsive in Israel as it was in South Africa and in the US. No violence has to happen. Israel can just quit being a “Jewish” state, and be a regional one instead. Genetic heritage should have no relevance in the 21st century. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/304 "2010-06-09T17:51:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think a lot of the resentment in the region stems from the events surrounding Israel’s creation and has been perpetuated by the Palestinian refugee crisis. True. Much of that resentment, it has to be noted, has been stoked by political leaders who are manipulating public attention. They try to get their people outraged at Israel so they won’t pay attention to the fact that the leaders are robbing the countries blind. Consider **Marmite Lover** : he wants to see Israel destroyed and posts “Go Hosni!” in support of Mubarak’s apparent defiance of the blockade. So far he doesn’t seem too upset that Mubarak has been rigged elections and clung to power in Egypt for 30 years and is getting ready to hand over power to his son. Which doesn’t negate any of Israel’s mistakes. But it does need to be acknowledged that a lot of the resentment is being perpetuated by people who don’t give a fuck about the Palestinians and absolutely will not let them into their own countries because they don’t want to deal with them. That’s a part of this tragedy, too. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So Hamas is good for gaza? The evidence shows living conditions have gotten better. That does undercut the claims that the blockade is causing starvation and an urgent humanitarian crisis in Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/305 "2010-06-09T17:54:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You keep using the words “Zionist” and “Zionism” in a manner that shows you have no clue what either mean, or you’re deliberately misusing them. I think of Zionism in Israel as the notion that Israel must remain a Jewish nation with a jewish majority to provide Jews a safe harbor from an inhospitable (perhaps even antisemetic) world. > [@](#): > > It’s like saying you don’t believe that America should be dissolved but its government and national identity should be removed and it should be ruled by Mexico and Canada in the future. I don’t see where I said taht we should dissolve the Israeli government and let israel be governed by Egypt and Syria. Abandoning zionism might mean giving palestinians Israeli citizenship which would mean Jews would be a minority in Israel in much the same way caucasians are soon going to be minorities in the US. Jews will still have most of the wealth and power but they will lose their virtual electoral monopoly. > [@](#): > > Nobody would offer that position seriously, let alone take it seriously if offered. And yet you evidently offer the same deal for Israel, with a straight face. Its not the same deal. I’m not suggesting that Israel give up its sovereignty to Egypt or even the USA. > [@](#): > > Likewise claiming that Jews, out of all the peoples of the world who are afforded self determination cannot be granted it without “injustice” being necessary is an absurdity. Why is it an absurdity? If history has conspired to make the continuation of a jewish Israel impossible without injustice then why is that absurd? > [@](#): > > Tellingly, granting the Palestinians self determination doesn’t entail any “injustice” in your view. Go figure. Are yout alking about the injustice of a two state solution or the injustice of allowing palestinians Israeli citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/306 "2010-06-09T18:02:55Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So Hamas is good for gaza? The Gazans thought they were their best hope for their future when they elected them, right? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/307 "2010-06-09T18:04:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Israel could abandon the archaic notion of racial entitlement, give all residents full citizenship and just have a United State of Palestine where ethnicity is irrelevant. The notion that rights should be determined by race is as repulsive in Israel as it was in South Africa and in the US. No violence has to happen. Israel can just quit being a “Jewish” state, and be a regional one instead. Genetic heritage should have no relevance in the 21st century. Just to be clear, are you proposing a One State solution, with the unification of Israel, The West Bank, and Gaza under one political authority, with citizenship for all the current residents? Doe this also include the “right of return” for any Palestinians displaced into other countries (eg, Jordan)? I’m asking because I’m not sure I’m reading your post correctly. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/308 "2010-06-09T18:04:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > it has to be noted, has been stoked by political leaders who are manipulating public attention. They try to get their people outraged at Israel so they won’t pay attention to the fact that the leaders are robbing the countries blind. Consider **Marmite Lover** : he wants to see Israel destroyed and posts “Go Hosni!” in support of Mubarak’s apparent defiance of the blockade. So far he doesn’t seem too upset that Mubarak has been rigged elections and clung to power in Egypt for 30 years and is getting ready to hand over power to his son. I agree. Arab leaders from Arafat to the Saudi royal family have been channeling all outrage and unrest in the arab world towards Israel for decades. > [@](#): > > Which doesn’t negate any of Israel’s mistakes. But it does need to be acknowledged that a lot of the resentment is being perpetuated by people who don’t give a fuck about the Palestinians and absolutely will not let them into their own countries because they don’t want to deal with them. That’s a part of this tragedy, too. Thats covers about 50% of my criticism of Israel. The other 50% is directed at Likud attitudes, the settlement activity, the disproportionate military responses which seems to stem from an overblown sense of paranoia, the citizenship law that was mentioned earlier and their irrational fear of coriander.. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/309 "2010-06-09T18:13:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think of Zionism in Israel as the notion that Israel must remain a Jewish nation with a jewish majority Yep, you’ve created your own personal definition. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > give all residents full citizenship There already is full citizenship for all Israeli citizens and asking the Jewish homeland to not grant a guaranteed safe haven to Jews is an absurdity. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The notion that rights should be determined by race is as repulsive in Israel as it was in South Africa and in the US. Mmmm hmmm. The very notion that Jews should have a guaranteed safe haven is madness. Madness!!! Of course, all the other states that allow preferential immigration and/or citizenship to descendants of their ethnic groups never come under any questioning, at all. Just one of those coincidences, I’m sure. Of course, if you were serious about religious pluralism in Israel you’d support groups like ARZA or IRAC instead of bluster on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/310 "2010-06-09T18:21:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, are you proposing a One State solution, with the unification of Israel, The West Bank, and Gaza under one political authority, with citizenship for all the current residents? Doe this also include the “right of return” for any Palestinians displaced into other countries (eg, Jordan)? I’m asking because I’m not sure I’m reading your post correctly. Yes to all. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/311 "2010-06-09T18:31:13Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There already is full citizenship for all Israeli citizens This has to be one of the most tautological statements I’ve ever seen. There was already full citizenship for all American citizens during slavery too. > [@](#): > > and asking the Jewish homeland to not grant a guaranteed safe haven to Jews is an absurdity How would it cease to be a safe haven under a one state solution? It would still be a safe haven just like most other countries are now. > [@](#): > > Mmmm hmmm. The very notion that Jews should have a guaranteed safe haven is madness. Madness!!! A one state solution would not prevent Israel from still being a safe haven. > [@](#): > > Of course, all the other states that allow preferential immigration and/or citizenship to descendants of their ethnic groups never come under any questioning, at all. What countries are you referring to, how many of them practice ethnic cleansing and apartheid and how much of my tax money do they get every year? > [@](#): > > Of course, if you were serious about religious pluralism in Israel you’d support groups like ARZA or IRAC instead of bluster on the internet. I don’t give a shit about religious pluralism (and I’m not sure why you think me, an atheist, becoming a Reform Jew, would help in any case), I care about equal rights. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/312 "2010-06-09T18:37:51Z")
I’d support a one- or two-state solution. I’m opposed to state support for religions, but I don’t care as long as these idiots stop killing each other and behaving like maniacs. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/313 "2010-06-09T18:57:27Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This has to be one of the most tautological statements I’ve ever seen. There was already full citizenship for all American citizens during slavery too. To give Frothy his due, he seemed to be saying that there’s no \*second-class \*citizenship under Israeli law. Despite minor details like military service requirements, and society having its own set of rules beyond the law, that is. > [@](#): > > How would it cease to be a safe haven under a one state solution? It would still be a safe haven just like most other countries are now. But Jews, especially immigrants, would be in a minority with much to answer for, much like Afrikaners at the end of apartheid and the Bantustans. But do they have a De Klerk of their own, or enough of a populace willing to follow one? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/314 "2010-06-09T19:03:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You can’t seriously be analogizing how the jewish population arrived in israel with how the black population arrived in teh new World? Once again not endorsing the idea of moving all the jews out of Israel but they weren’t shipped there on slaveships against their will. In some cases - for example, the expulsion of the Mizrai Jews from all of Israel’s neighbours - they were indeed sent there “against their will”, though obviously not as slaves. But that is beside the point. The analogy does not rest on the _arrival_ of Blacks being similar in any way to that of Jews, but on the similarity of a call for their _departure_ because hatred against them by others causes a “problem”. The rebuttal is, it appears to me, something along the lines of ‘yes, but in this case that hatred is …’ what, more justified? Understandable in light of historic curcumstances? If so, isn’t that sort of saying that some kinds of bigotry are “okay”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/315 "2010-06-09T19:08:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes to all. I think your solution would be wonderful. A one state, possibly with an arab majortity, where it doesn’t matter a damn whether one is Jewish or Muslim, and where each community lives in peace and harmony. I do not, however, regard it as in the least likely in the foreseeable future given the cultural state of the ME generally and the history of animosity between these ethnic groups in particular, and arguing that Israel is failing because it does not immediately embrace this mirage is barking for the moon. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/316 "2010-06-09T19:13:45Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So Hamas is good for gaza? In some ways, it probably has. One of the reasons Hamas was voted in was that ordinary Palestinians were sick of the inept corruption of the PA. Hamas is famous for organizing social services etc. Of course, it is also famous for unending war. My point is a simple one: whatever is happening in Gaza, it isn’t “starvation of millions”, and the argument is not advanced by embracing untruths. > [@](#): > > I’m going to stick with the assessments of the UN, the red cross and Amnesty International. It may not be a humanitarian crisis of Darfur or North korea proportions but I don’t know which international humanitarian organization has said that thngs are pretty much OK in gaza. I’m not arguing that everything in peachy in Gaza. I’m arguing it isn’t undergoing “starvation”. You are excluding the middle here. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/317 "2010-06-09T19:21:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’d support a one- or two-state solution. There is not one state “solution”. Palestinians don’t want to be Israelis. Israelis don’t want to have a culture that [is awash in incitement to violence and genocidal hatred](http://www.pmw.org.il/) to have the ability to eliminate the Law of Return, or to let groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad be treated with police means only (as if Israeli police officers would have an easier time disarming Hamas in Gaza than the Israeli military). A one state “solution” is a call for Israel to be eliminated as a nation and the entire area placed under the control of the Palestinians. It’s nonsensical to put it alongside of an actual two-state solution as if they’re just two different evolutions of the current situation. It’s like saying "we can either find a way for the two sides to be granted territorial autonomy and viable states with peace, security and economic viability… or we can just eliminate Israel and call the whole thing “Greater Palestine” (or whatever). > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I don’t give a shit about religious pluralism (and I’m not sure why you think me, an atheist, becoming a Reform Jew, would help in any case), I care about equal rights. Crowbar your foot out of your mouth and realize what religious pluralism is (and why it has nothing to do with you becoming a Reform Jew, whatever you think _means_). You claimed to want equal rights for all people in Israel with no religious impositions or preferences. That requires you to break the impact of the ultra-orthodox voting bloc that gives them disproportionate power in the parliamentary system. I’ve actually worked to do that. You whine on a message board. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This has to be one of the most tautological statements I’ve ever seen. You were, rather clearly, trying to claim that there is anybody that Israel only offered “partial” citizenship to, which is why you made a demand of “full” citizenship. Except, of course, all Israeli citizens do have full citizenship, including their Arab citizens who make up roughly 1/4 to 1/5 of the population. Your claim is a whine about how non-Israeli citizens are not offered Israeli citizenship. Go figure! Of course, they don’t _want_ Israeli citizenship. Your dishonesty in comparing Palestinians, who want their own state and don’t want to be Israelis (while Arabs in Israel are actual citizens) with slaves in the US is shocking in the extent of its dishonesty. If Israel kept Arabs as slaves within its country you might have a point. Of course, you don’t. People who are outside of Israel’s territory and who want their own state aren’t treated as Israelis, and you liken this to slavery. It’s as predictable as your reliance on the “apartheid” canard. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How would it cease to be a safe haven under a one state solution? It would still be a safe haven just like most other countries are now. Yet another bit of feigned non-comprehension from you. How would removing the situation where only one single country on the entire planet guarantees Jews the right of refuge… somehow end the only true safe haven for Jews on the planet? Really? And ‘most other’ countries are safe havens? How many allowed unlimited Jewish immigration during WWII, or after WW II? How many would now? There must be many, given all those safe havens that exist, right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/318 "2010-06-09T19:25:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > There is not one state “solution”. I didn’t say one was on the table. I said if Israelis and Palestinians wanted separate countries, that’s fine with me, and that if both groups wanted to share the same area and government, I’d support that. I would not support either group being forced to live under the government of the other. You might have noticed that I said “I don’t care as long as these idiots stop killing each other and behaving like maniacs.” You neglected to quote it for some reason. Clearly I don’t want to see anyone else murdered or any populations destroyed on behalf of their ridiculous beliefs about religion and history. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/319 "2010-06-09T19:27:56Z")
Refuge from what? What are Jews having to flee from these days? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/320 "2010-06-09T19:33:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I didn’t say one was on the table. I said if Israelis and Palestinians wanted separate countries, that’s fine with me, and that if both groups wanted to share the same area and government, I’d support that. I would not support either group being forced to live under the government of the other. You might have noticed that I said “I don’t care as long as these idiots stop killing each other and behaving like maniacs.” You neglected to quote it for some reason. Clearly I don’t want to see anyone else murdered or any populations destroyed on behalf of their ridiculous beliefs about religion and history. To my mind, their beliefs (both Arab and Jew) are no more and no less “ridiculous” than any other form of ethno-nationalism. But otherwise, sure. I’d have no problems with a “one state solution” - were it in any way possible without massive bloodshed. As it stands, it fits in the same category as the “one world government” idea - a great thing, to have a single sovereign and democratic government for the whole world, achieved without bloodshed. A great thing. I’d be all for it. The problem lies in getting from “here” to “there”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=17)