# Helen Thomas Forcibly Retired **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 7, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299 "2010-06-07T17:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/141 "2010-06-08T06:34:21Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > Was Zionism really supported by a majority of European Jews? > > There are numerous instances throughout European history where Jews were expelled from various localities. So clearly some of the Europeans did want to kick out Jews.The Nazis even considered expulsion before settling on extermination. It’s also clear that a big chunk of the Jewish managerial and professional classes in Germany were assimilated into German society. As far as I’m aware, they didn’t want out of Europe. At the risk of sounding crass, there wasn’t a big chunk of the Jewish managerial and professional classes left in Germany circa 1945. I’ll let Wikipedia fill you in on the remainder: > [@](#): > > After World War II and the Holocaust, a massive wave of stateless Jews, mainly Holocaust survivors, began migrating to Palestine in small boats in defiance of British rules. The British either imprisoned these Jews in Cyprus (including many orphaned children) or sent them to the British-controlled Allied Occupation Zones in Germany. This resulted in universal Jewish support for Zionism and the refusal of the U.S. Congress to grant economic aid to Britain. In addition, Zionist groups attacked the British in Palestine and, with its empire facing bankruptcy, Britain was forced to refer the issue to the newly created United Nations. > > In 1947, the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommended that western Palestine should be partitioned into a Jewish state, an Arab state and a UN-controlled territory (Corpus separatum) around Jerusalem.[22] but, yes, they weren’t exactly made to feel welcome in Europe. But that is hugely different from being actively kicked out of Europe and forced to Israel, as your post essentially claimed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/142 "2010-06-08T11:07:26Z")
If it helps, Finn and Dio, I think you’re both being ridiculous. David Duke is not the left what Cynthia McKinney is to the right. We don’t get him, righties don’t get her. But “hymietown,”, BY ITSELF, is sufficient evidence that your claim was wrong, Dio. And of course it is: it’s an absurd claim. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/143 "2010-06-08T11:18:22Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > If you were to exclude ethnic groups, sociology and anthropology and the like as not being science, then they would not be science. However, in the real world anthropology and sociology are science and there are people with academic credentials who study such things, including ethnic groups, with peer reviewed journals who are generally accepted as scientists. > > So you are completely wrong and full of poop. > Here is a good link that wasn’t invented just for this thread. > [http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Social\_Sciences/Anthropology/Cultural\_Anthropology/Ethnography/](http://www.dmoz.org/Science/Social_Sciences/Anthropology/Cultural_Anthropology/Ethnography/) I’m sorry, but that’s not how it works here. I stated my position and presented several arguments supporting it. If you disagree, then debate me. Don’t start demanding arguments from authority - that’s the coward’s way out. If you have a cite disproving my position (that Israelis can be considered an ethnic group), then let’s see it. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/144 "2010-06-08T11:25:44Z")
Ah, age: the great filter remover. I’ve liked Helen Thomas since seeing Ronald Reagan fall over himself to ingratiate himself to her. She was a pit viper with a pen and even though we don’t always agree on policy, I’ve always admired her (dare I say it?) chutzpah. I will admit that my jaw dropped reading her comments. Not that she held them, necessarily – journalists come with their own set of deeply set biases, too – but that a person who made her living in the media was so reckless with her words. You can split hairs and say it wasn’t racist to say that the Jews should go home. But Helen Thomas knows the power of words and knew that she was treading on thin ice. So either she just didn’t care or her brain isn’t functioning properly. Either way, you simply can’t say things like that and keep your job in the mainstream media. It’s time for the old gal to retire. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/145 "2010-06-08T12:02:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Exactly. > > I’m perfectly willing to accept the Palestinians as an ethnic group. But answer me this: if I were to declare myself to be anti-Palestinian, would people here call me racist? If by here, you mean the SDMB, I would say probably not. If we speak of America more generally, the answer is a resounding no. That’s Glenn Greenwald’s take on it; Helen Thomas wasn’t particularly guily of bigotry, just the **wrong kind** of bigotry. He cites several examples of prominent people saying very similar things about, well, other people who should get out of Palestine, with nary a peep raised about it. > **[Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com](https://www.salon.com/writer/glenn_greenwald)** > > Est. reading time: 1 minute Greenwald has been focused on the extreme pro-Israeli slant of the American media and political class for a while now. I do think it is really important for America to revisit our relationship with Israel and decide more clearly what we do want to support and what we don’t. I don’t agree with Helen Thomas’ statement at all. I do think we cannot be reflexively one sided about Israel and Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/146 "2010-06-08T12:45:50Z")
\ Sorry to see that Helen Thomas has gone off the rails at last. As previously pointed out she was renowned for asking Presidents the hardball questions that other reporters didn’t have the guts to ask, but the Bush administration\* and the passage of years have done her no favors and she’s clung to her front-row seat in a desperate attempt to remain relevant. Some people need to learn how and when to let go. No apologies from me for her statements. While I think they were aimed at Israel rather than Jews in general, they were still misjudged and pointlessly offensive. IIRC she’s made previous comments critical of Israel, but this was the point at which she finally crossed the line. \*It wasn’t just that she was being sidelined; it was that she was stubbornly determined not to give the Bush administration the satisfaction of outlasting her. She should have retired when Clinton was still in office IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/147 "2010-06-08T12:46:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If it helps, Finn and Dio, I think you’re both being ridiculous. > > David Duke is not the left what Cynthia McKinney is to the right. We don’t get him, righties don’t get her. > > But “hymietown,”, BY ITSELF, is sufficient evidence that your claim was wrong, Dio. And of course it is: it’s an absurd claim. I suspect DIogenes is No True Scotsmanning here, based mostly on this: > [@](#): > > There is no such thing as “lefty anti-semitism.” It doesn’t exist. It’s a sentiment completely at odds with liberalism. Therefore, someone someone espousing anti-semite views is not a lefty, by definition. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/148 "2010-06-08T13:01:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > There were Jews in that region before Israel was created, weren’t there? There are Brits in New England and it belonged to us once. Can we declare a New Brittania on that basis? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/149 "2010-06-08T13:03:21Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > It’s not equivalent. Most black people in this country are descended from people who were brought here forcefully and the last one of them has been dead for well over a century. Most Israelis are descended from people who emigrated voluntarily and a lot of them are still alive. Huge numbers of Russian Jews emigrate to this day. And these ‘black people’ did not take over the land and declare it a new country. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/150 "2010-06-08T13:07:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suspect DIogenes is No True Scotsmanning here, based mostly on this: > > Therefore, someone someone espousing anti-semite views is not a lefty, by definition. However, since we all know that lefties would never makes such an easily disprovable statement, it can be clearly shown that **Dio** is in fact a crypto-neocon. We’re onto you, Mister **Cynic** … ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/151 "2010-06-08T13:16:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > That’s not true. You can argue that on balance he’s an asshole, and I wouldn’t disagree, but sweeping absolutes like that are Dio’s domain. Supporting Obama and opposing the Iraq war are both, at the very least, “remotely liberal” things to do. I had no idea your average Iraqi civilian was a liberal. I’m sure at least one of them is anti-semitic. I guess you’ve proven your case. Congratulations. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/152 "2010-06-08T13:21:15Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. I already said the notion was both unreasonable and unpractical. I’m not defending it, I’m just saying it isn’t racist. Every time this comes up, I sorta scratch my head. Assume for the moment it is true that lefties can be “anti-Israeli” but not “racist”. What difference does that make? Why is “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a national origin some how morally superior, or at least not as blameworthy, as “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a skin colour? Both to my mind appear to be subsets of the same thing - bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/153 "2010-06-08T13:36:18Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > So she starts out being asked about Israel and then the questioner switches it to Jews. While I am still not happy with the way it was expressed by Ms. Thomas, I can certainly understand that she was played and is still being played “gotcha” by the people who conflate Israel with Jews for the purpose of oppressing Palestinians. Well, I have it on good authority that there are a hell of a lot of Jews in Israel. And it’s not a huge leap to think that by telling the inhabitants of that country to “go home” to Germany, Poland etc. she was not referring to Israeli Arabs. Gotta love **Diogenes** ’ fantasy about Israel being founded on “racial entitlement, ethnic cleansing and apartheid”. I’ll do a **Diogenes** and ask him to cite the portion of the U.N. mandate that established any of those things - though he might try to squeak out “racial entitlement” and “apartheid” from the fact that the mandate created two states, one Jewish and one Arab. And “ethnic cleansing” would apply to the attempt by the Palestinian Arabs and their allies to destroy the Jewish state at its inception. But oops, there I go again, conflating Israel and Jews. :rolleyes: My personal opinion on Helen Thomas’ debacle is that rather than adopting bigoted views contrary to her prior beliefs as a result of aging, it’s far more likely that age-related changes led to a loosening of inhibitions against expressing those views publicly. Or maybe she’s mentally fully capable, and just thought that her elder statesman status in the press corps entitled her to say what she felt without being liable for the consequences. She’s had a fan base telling her that she’s wonderful for many years, and the plaudits may have gotten to her head. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/154 "2010-06-08T14:43:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Is every ethnic group entitled to go back and occupy land that thir ancestors occupied two thousand years ago? Are Mexicans entitled to take back Texas and Arizona? Can the Lakota tribes retake the American plains states? > > The Palestinians are just as much genetic heirs to the original, ancient Palestinian Jews as European Jews are by the way, not that I think ancient genetic heritage means anything, but modern Palestinians are, in fact, descended from ancient Israelites. But anti-Israelis are constantly invoking ancestral claims. Palestinians should be given land back because their ancestors lived there. Israelis should go back to countries where their ancestors lived. But when you point out that the Jews have an ancestral claim to Israel, suddenly ancestral claims are meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/155 "2010-06-08T15:03:06Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Either way, you simply can’t say things like that and keep your job in the mainstream media. So, when Ann Coulter says things like “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity” that’s how you keep a job in media, eh? To what should we ascribe Coulter’s liberty to say things like that and still be around? Would love to read these same posters that re: Helen scream shock and horror and, off with her head, what kind of justification is there for Coulter. What puzzles me how quickly a non-news event becomes a Purgatory of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/156 "2010-06-08T15:04:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But anti-Israelis are constantly invoking ancestral claims. Palestinians should be given land back because their ancestors lived there. Israelis should go back to countries where their ancestors lived. But when you point out that the Jews have an ancestral claim to Israel, suddenly ancestral claims are meaningless. Palesntinians should be given their land back not because their ancestors lived there but because they lived there. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/157 "2010-06-08T15:20:20Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > So, when Ann Coulter says things like “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity” that’s how you keep a job in media, eh? To what should we ascribe Coulter’s liberty to say things like that and still be around? Would love to read these same posters that re: Helen scream shock and horror and, off with her head, what kind of justification is there for Coulter. > > What puzzles me how quickly a non-news event becomes a Purgatory of sorts. That’s a fair question. But the answer is: Howard Stern is not Matt Lauer, even though they’re both “in media.” Howard Stern’s employers welcome and encourage naked lesbian spanking and Beastiality Dial-a-Date, because that’s the kind of show they want to put on. Matt Lauer’s employers would react poorly if Matt led off the Today show with an invitation to a woman to describe in detail what she was wearing and how she seduced her next-door neighbor’s wife when she was 19. So it’s not the Ms. Thomas’s views banish her from all media – but only from the ostensibly unbiased, “real news” commentary venue that was employing her. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/158 "2010-06-08T15:27:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s a fair question. > > But the answer is: Howard Stern is not Matt Lauer, even though they’re both “in media.” > > Howard Stern’s employers welcome and encourage naked lesbian spanking and Beastiality Dial-a-Date, because that’s the kind of show they want to put on. Matt Lauer’s employers would react poorly if Matt led off the Today show with an invitation to a woman to describe in detail what she was wearing and how she seduced her next-door neighbor’s wife when she was 19. > > So it’s not the Ms. Thomas’s views banish her from all media – but only from the ostensibly unbiased, “real news” commentary venue that was employing her. What does Howard Stern have to do with Ann Coulter? As much as you’d love to claim, she has more journalistic cachet than Howard - especially so among her readers/viewers/listeners ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/159 "2010-06-08T15:29:17Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > So, when Ann Coulter says things like “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity” that’s how you keep a job in media, eh? To what should we ascribe Coulter’s liberty to say things like that and still be around? Would love to read these same posters that re: Helen scream shock and horror and, off with her head, what kind of justification is there for Coulter. > > What puzzles me how quickly a non-news event becomes a Purgatory of sorts. Actually, Ann got booted as a writer from National Review because of that. But when Ann is invited to join the White House Press Corps, I will concede your point. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299/160 "2010-06-08T15:32:56Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Every time this comes up, I sorta scratch my head. > > Assume for the moment it is true that lefties can be “anti-Israeli” but not “racist”. What difference does that make? Why is “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a national origin some how morally superior, or at least not as blameworthy, as “unreasonable and impractical” animus directed against persons sharing a skin colour? > > Both to my mind appear to be subsets of the same thing - bigotry. Do you think when people oppose the actions of the United States, that is racist? Is it bigoted when they say that we should get out of a particular country, for example? It seems perfectly clear that one can vehemently oppose the actions of a state without being racist in the least. Does it really not seem clear to you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helen-thomas-forcibly-retired/542299.md?page=9)