# Helicopter carrying Iranian President and Foreign Minister has crashed -upd, all aboard died \[2024-05-19\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [May 19, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772 "2024-05-19T16:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/61 "2024-05-20T08:00:11Z")
I was going to say that assuming Raisi was dead was perhaps premature, but that was because I had not seen the news in the past few hours. So for those getting their news from this thread, Raisi’s death was confirmed, and it doesn’t seem there were any survivors. It’s not clear who rescuers thought they were talking to over mobile phones or where that story came from. Excellent analysis, and thank you for that post putting the situation in context. Raisi was a hardliner responsible for brutal crackdowns over the years, and was on very good terms with the Ayatollah. It seems that at one point he was indeed being groomed to be the Ayatollah’s successor, but according to Christiane Amanpour, Raisi’s extreme unpopularity due partly to the brutality of the crackdowns and partly to the poor economy was making this increasingly unlikely. Nevertheless, his death is significant for all the reasons you mention and will have major repercussions. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/62 "2024-05-20T09:04:50Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sometimes I wish we could upvote a post here. Agreed. As to the crash, it might very well have been an accident. I suppose. This morning’s reports say he is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/63 "2024-05-20T09:35:49Z")
The Jpost article has a photo showing the fog. It was Rudolph saying “oh hell no” dense. > **[Iranian president dead after helicopter crashes into mountain - report](https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-801726)** > > Amir-Abdollahian and Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem, the representative of the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist in East Azerbaijan and the Imam of Friday Prayer in Tabriz, were also killed, among others. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/64 "2024-05-20T10:01:06Z")
FWIW it seems some are celebrating president Raisi’s death in Iran. Not sure how widespread it is though (doesn’t seem to be): > **[Why President Raisi's death has sparked off fireworks, celebrations in Iran](https://www.indiatoday.in/world/story/iran-fireworks-celebrations-president-ebrahim-raisi-death-helicopter-crash-butcher-of-tehran-islamic-2541397-2024-05-20)** > > People in Iran are celebrating the death of Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi with fireworks, memes and jokes. But why this outburst of joy and celebration over the death of a national leader? And is the celebration just about Raisi's death or is it... Also, [this article](https://www.reuters.com/world/reactions-death-irans-president-helicopter-crash-2024-05-20/) has a video which includes some footage of the wreck. I am no expert but it sure looks like a crash no one survives. The video also shows people mourning/praying for Raisi which is the opposite of the story just above. So…I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/65 "2024-05-20T10:31:40Z")
He was, of course, a major supporter of Hamas. Could the next person be more of an isolationist? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/66 "2024-05-20T10:55:49Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > What I mean by that - they would need to know right away - are these guys dead, or not? It would never do to start all that coup stuff, and then 24 hours later … Surprise! They ain’t dead. So to me, although I have absolutely no experience in this kind or thing, I’d want to keep potential rivals guessing for a little bit, as long as possible even. See who pops oit of the woodwork, and deal with them, so to speak. Right, and I was taking that a couple of steps further. You can’t go “Oh, the President’s dead, let’s go start a coup”. It wouldn’t work unless you had already planned and prepositioned things. And conspiracies have a short shelf life, so you also can’t plan a conspiracy “just in case something happens, we’ll know it when we see it”. A coup attempt built around this crash only makes sense if the crash was part of the conspiracy. Which it probably wasn’t. But the authorities couldn’t completely rule out the possibility of conspiracy, so they had to act as on the presumption that it was, including misinformation to keep the conspirators (who may or may not exist) guessing. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/67 "2024-05-20T11:06:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Right, and I was taking that a couple of steps further. You can’t go “Oh, the President’s dead, let’s go start a coup”. It wouldn’t work unless you had already planned and prepositioned things. And conspiracies have a short shelf life, so you also can’t plan a conspiracy “just in case something happens, we’ll know it when we see it”. A coup attempt built around this crash only makes sense if the crash was part of the conspiracy. Which it probably wasn’t. But the authorities couldn’t completely rule out the possibility of conspiracy, so they had to act as on the presumption that it was, including misinformation to keep the conspirators (who may or may not exist) guessing. “Oh, my eyes have crossed!” But yes, I agree. A coup has to strike while the emotions are running high. You can’t just send a text and have people go “It’s coup’ o 'clock, time to go storm the castle!” ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/68 "2024-05-20T11:09:31Z")
The fog seen in the videos is insane. I cannot fathom why a pilot would dare fly in those conditions. Well, I actually can … I wonder if this might not be similar to the crash in 2010 that wiped out a bunch of highly placed members of the Polish government and military (including the president of Poland)… in that case it seems that the pilot was directly ordered by the president to attempt a landing in absolutely terrible fog because “they had to absolutely make it there in time”… I wonder if the Iranian President pressured the pilot to go ahead with the flight because “they had to be back no matter what because reasons”. And then… the rather imaginable happens. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/69 "2024-05-20T11:44:22Z")
Maybe the fog got worse after they were airborne? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/70 "2024-05-20T11:45:18Z")
Thank you for this extremely interesting and helpful post. I, too, often wish we could “like” posts on this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/71 "2024-05-20T11:54:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Having contact with survivors but not being able to find them sounds weird to me, too. I’m not saying that that’s proof of a conspiracy It depends on what they call “survivor” in that context. If the preceding post is correct: > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > They were in a flight of 3, and it’s my understanding the other 2 made it to their destination. it would not be outrageous to call the other two helicopters “survivors” (at least for a while until they land and the misunderstanding is cleared up but not corrected in a public statement because: what for?) and having contact with them and not finding the third helicopter is completely natural. I am not saying this was so, just pointing out that from Farsi to Reuters a lot gets lost (and added!) in translation. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/72 "2024-05-20T11:56:53Z")
In that case, wouldn’t a prudent pilot try to find a place to land and wait the fog out, or try to fly over it? Especially with a helicopter; it is somewhat easier to find a place to land a helicopter than to land a plane. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/73 "2024-05-20T12:16:07Z")
Not if you find yourself _in_ the soup and can’t see where to. Once you start “scud running” the walls can close in _really_ fast and the terrain may be rising faster than you are climbing. The prudent pilot sees things start to deteriorate and does the “F— this” maneuver and turns back home or to a known-safe alternate. The very prudent pilot waits the bad weather out safely sitting back at departure base. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/74 "2024-05-20T12:31:23Z")
I was VERY glad when we outsourced our corporate jet operations. When we owned the plane and the pilots were employees (direct reports to the CEO) they weee under all kinds of pressure to fly when the weather was not good. When they became employees of a charter airline they suddenly became a lot more cautious. ---
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/75 "2024-05-20T12:32:19Z")
Which is what I said in the beginning - I would have expected the pilot to say “we go back” or (if the fog was bad enough in the airport of departure) refuse to take off. That is what made me wonder whether there was pressure on the part of the Iranian president to get going. Something similar to what happened in the Smolensk crash. (Edited to add: What **Mighty\_Mouse** said right above) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/76 "2024-05-20T12:33:48Z")
It’s a helicopter. They can go straight up, straight down, or drive it into a mountain. Maybe the Russians were disrupting GPS signals. That would be epic. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/77 "2024-05-20T12:41:41Z")
> [@JoseB](#): > > That is what made me wonder whether there was pressure on the part of the Iranian president to get going. Something similar to what happened in the Smolensk crash. Too soon to know, but – yes. There is an aviation VIP syndrome where the danger of annoying the supremo passenger outweighs fear of crashing. I do not know if this is proven, but VIP pressure, to continue helicopter operation, allegedly contributed to the death of U.S. basketball star Kobe Bryant. In this latest case, the senior passenger, Ebrahim Raisi, was called by many the [Butcher of Teheran](https://www.euronews.com/2024/05/20/butcher-of-tehran-who-was-iranian-president-ebrahim-raisi), so the desire to avoid crossing him could have been substantial. ---
**Author:** ![Humans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dfb087/32.png) [@Humans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humans)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/78 "2024-05-20T13:23:45Z")
one of the problems with liking/upvotes is it makes sites like these even more addictive. (Although people who make ad revenue from such sites see it as a big plus) ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/79 "2024-05-20T14:49:16Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > I was VERY glad when we outsourced our corporate jet operations. When we owned the plane and the pilots were employees (direct reports to the CEO) they weee under all kinds of pressure to fly when the weather was not good. > > When they became employees of a charter airline they suddenly became a lot more cautious. Indeed, the rules are different in that condition. A privately owned and operated airplane can be flown under Part 91, which are the same rules Joe Sunday Pilot has to follow in his Cessna 150. But charter operators are under a different set of rules (Part 135) which are more akin to airline regulations. Somebody mentioned VIP pressure to fly, and that’s a real thing. It’s a skill to be able to push back against that sometimes. I mention all this only to make the point that… who the hell knows what the rules are for a high level government flight in Iran? For all the standardization in aviation, individual countries can still set their own procedures. I’ve flown with a number of pilots from parts of the world where they say it’s still pretty much the wild west as far as regulations and enforcement. One guy I knew from Russia told me stories that would make an FAA inspector faint dead away… ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/80 "2024-05-20T15:07:55Z")
As far as I can tell, this crash happened under the same circumstances as the one that Killed Kobe, his daughter, and crew. CFIT into mountainous terrain while flying in poor to no visibility. The helicopter involved, for what it’s worth, was relatively new, purchased from Bell in the 2000s during a lull in sanctions. There have been issues with getting parts for maintenance under the current sanctions, but this wasn’t one of the helicopters left over from the Shah days. I have a higher than usual interest in those, since my dad was a Bell Helicopter employee in the late 70s and I spent my toddler years in Iran as a direct result. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772.md?page=5)