# Helicopter carrying Iranian President and Foreign Minister has crashed -upd, all aboard died \[2024-05-19\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [May 19, 2024, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772 "2024-05-19T16:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/101 "2024-05-20T22:04:12Z")
Because it fears that if it flies too high it will become vulnerable to missiles? Perhaps it flies under an inappropiate military protocol, Catch-22 style, and if you look at the mountain it crashed into it would have cleared it if it had flown 50 m higher. Paranoia is a killer! Don’t know where the next mountain would have been in its path, but that is another story and irrelevant in the meantime. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/102 "2024-05-20T22:07:43Z")
And contrary to popular belief, helicopters don’t do “straight up” so great when loaded and especially at altitude. The call them “rotary wings” for a reason–some forwards speed helps a lot. Looks like they impacted at plenty of forward speed… ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/103 "2024-05-20T22:14:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Meanwhile, to the pilots: If you (through whatever turn of events) find yourself flying close to the ground in dangerously-thick fog, wouldn’t the natural response to be to fly straight up? A very quick search says that the elevation in the area is 7,200 feet. The helicopter involved was a Bell 212, which has a maximum altitude of 12,900 feet. But I _think_ the maximum out-of-ground effect hover altitude is 8,700 feet. So theoretically, it could have stopped and went straight up; but reports are that there was fog. Moist air is less dense than dry air, so the density altitude was probably closer to the terrain altitude. They’d be better off climbing with forward speed. As a non-IFR rated helicopter pilot, here are my thoughts. The two-seat piston helicopters I’ve flown don’t have autopilot. Something like a Bell 212 probably does. But that airframe was 40 to 50 years old. (I looked up the serial number in the FAA database, and did not find it.) Did that particular aircraft _have_ autopilot? If it did, was it working? The thing to remember about helicopters is that they’re inherently unstable. Also, the pilot must make constant, minute control inputs to keep it in balance. You can’t keep up with it if you think about it. You make the inputs through muscle memory. And muscle memory is strongly dependent upon reliable data from the pilot’s Mk.I Optical sensors. Entering IMC in an unstable aircraft probably isn’t a good idea… even if it does have autopilot. ---
**Author:** ![Tride](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tride/32/13907_2.png) [@Tride](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tride)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/104 "2024-05-20T22:44:36Z")
212s definitely do NOT have autopilot unless really really refitted. It’s basically a fancy Huey. And they’re slightly limited by being dual turbine–nice if one fails, but less performance than a 205 as I understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/105 "2024-05-20T22:48:32Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > 212s definitely do NOT have autopilot unless really really refitted. It’s basically a fancy Huey. I was making an assumption based on ‘corporate’ helicopters. Again: I flew (and hope to have money to fly again) little piston-powered helicopters. ---
**Author:** ![Humans](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dfb087/32.png) [@Humans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humans)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/106 "2024-05-20T23:19:25Z")
Instead of paying money to fly them why not earn it. I heard Iran has a new job opening for a helicopter pilot. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2024, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/107 "2024-05-20T23:22:11Z")
Tempting… But I don’t think my wife and the cats would let me. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/108 "2024-05-21T02:11:00Z")
It is typical EVERYBODY policy. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/109 "2024-05-21T03:54:11Z")
On a perhaps related note, I flew from Gibratar to Heathrow to Seattle today and security was over the top at all three airports–variously, extra scans, dogs, repeat pat-downs, swabs, shoes off, lots of personnel in evidence. In Seattle, we were told the checked bags were undergoing additional screening and it was over an hour from the first bag from our flight hitting the belt to the last one. Bags appeared in dribs and drabs with long pauses between clumps. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/110 "2024-05-21T11:46:59Z")
Small news story with a brief update on the latest events: > **[Three branches of Iranian government hold 'extraordinary meeting' after...](https://www.yahoo.com/news/three-branches-iranian-government-hold-080123064.html)** > > Iran's three branches of government held an extraordinary meeting on Monday, with First Vice President Mohammad Mokhber representing the executive branch following the death of President Ebrahim Raisi in a helicopter crash, state TV said. "We will... First VP becomes acting President per the Iranian Constitution, with an election to follow in a few weeks (for a loose definition of “election,” of course) to formally fill the office. ---
**Author:** ![DETXL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/detxl/32/19366_2.png) [@DETXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DETXL)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/111 "2024-05-21T17:10:15Z")
> [@Tride](#): > > 212s definitely do NOT have autopilot unless really really refitted. It’s basically a fancy Huey. And they’re slightly limited by being dual turbine–nice if one fails, but less performance than a 205 as I understand it. The images I’ve seen don’t have the characteristic fin forward of the mast that early autopilot-capable 212s did—it looks [like this](https://www.airliners.net/photo/Mexico-Air-Force/Bell-212/2645667)—but that was later deemed unnecessary, so who knows? I’m not sure how easy it is to tell that visually from the antennas for the various IFR equipment (see the “Avionics” section [here](https://www.army-technology.com/projects/bell-212/?cf-view)). If not… honestly “if so,” too, really… it does seem the definition of “inexcusable” to fly into those conditions. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2024, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/112 "2024-05-21T17:49:13Z")
Sometimes a pilot is reluctant to say NO to an important client. Flying a VIP is a cushy and well paying job. You don’t want to annoy the client and risk losing the job. That was a factor in Kobe Bryant’s crash. It would be even more of a factor flying the Iranian President. He can have a pilot that annoys or disappoints him arrested. This time the pilot flew under bad conditions and it cost people their lives. Not that I’ve shed any tears for that tyrant. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/113 "2024-05-22T01:04:34Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > So for those getting their news from this thread, Raisi’s death was confirmed, and it doesn’t seem there were any survivors. It’s not clear who rescuers thought they were talking to over mobile phones or where that story came from. Here’s where the account came from, according to the Washington Post: > [@](#): > > The head of Iran’s Disaster Management Organization, Mohammad Hassan Nami, oversaw the identification of the bodies recovered from the site and said the supreme leader’s local representative, Mohammad Ali Ale-Hashem, appeared to have survived the initial impact of the crash. > > “He was alive for up to an hour after the air accident and even had a telephone conversation with Mr. Gholam-Hossein Esmaeili, the head of the President’s Office,” Nami said, according to a state media report. > **[What we know about the helicopter crash that killed Iranian President Raisi](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/05/20/iran-president-death-helicopter-crash-news/)** > > First Vice President Mohammad Mokhber has assumed the duties of president and will hold an election within 50 days. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/114 "2024-05-22T18:13:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Sometimes a pilot is reluctant to say NO to an important client. Flying a VIP is a cushy and well paying job. You don’t want to annoy the client and risk losing the job. > > That was a factor in Kobe Bryant’s crash. It would be even more of a factor flying the Iranian President. He can have a pilot that annoys or disappoints him arrested. > > This time the pilot flew under bad conditions and it cost people their lives. > > Not that I’ve shed any tears for that tyrant. What I fail to understand is that apparently those VIPs value their own lives less than pilots do. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/115 "2024-05-22T18:24:03Z")
I daresay the VIPs have little to no understanding of the risks involved, at least as compared to the pilot. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/116 "2024-05-22T19:21:22Z")
To say nothing of the “You’re the hired help and will do as I say!” attitude. ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/117 "2024-05-22T19:37:04Z")
But why don’t they listen to the person who by far has the most authority to assess the risks? I mean, I could be Emperor of the Universe, but if my copter pilot tells me “there’s thick fog ahead in the mountains and we better don’t fly”, I sure as hell would take their advice. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/118 "2024-05-22T19:50:43Z")
Ordinary people take small risks to their life every single day like jaywalking, driving too fast, or even talking to a stranger. A world leader takes many times that many risks. When an expert tells us something isn’t safe, it is almost instinctive (yet folly) to access that risk the same way we do our everyday risks. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/119 "2024-05-22T20:00:43Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > I daresay the VIPs have little to no understanding of the risks involved, at least as compared to the pilot. I believe this is really the major factor in many of these accidents. VIPs have a totally different perspective than pilots, generally being obsessed with getting to where they need to be. If they’re authoritarian types as many of them undoubtedly are, they will have little respect for the opinion of the “hired help”. To be fair, we don’t really know if that was the case here. The bad weather may have been unexpected. There may also have been pilot error, which in heavy fog in mountainous terrain could be deadly. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2024, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772/120 "2024-05-22T20:11:33Z")
> [@EinsteinsHund](#): > > But why don’t they listen to the person who by far has the **most authority** to assess the risks? Because some people have difficulty acknowledging that anyone has more authority in any matter then they themselves claim to have, reality be damned. These are people who truly believe “I’m the boss and what I say goes” applies to things that give zero shits about their authority, like gravity or momentum. The kind of people who actually believe they can command the tide to recede. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-carrying-iranian-president-and-foreign-minister-has-crashed-upd-all-aboard-died-2024-05-19/1001772.md?page=7)