# Helicopter Gunships, the American Sole, and ... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564 "2003-11-05T16:05:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/1 "2003-11-05T16:05:50Z")
After swimming this morning I heard a man speaking to another in the locker room. Summarizing what I remember: > [@](#): > > You heard about the helicopter that was shot down the other day? Yes, well, there was a reporter who asked an Iraqi man what he thought of that. The man said, “Those Americans, good riddance!” The reporter asked, “Why do you hate the Americans?” The man said, “Every day the American helicopters fly over my neighborhood and sit leaning out the door.” When he didn’t say more the reporter asked, “But why do you hate the Americans.” The man said, “They sit in the helicopter and fly over and their feet are right there for all to see. My wife and children see this and it is insulting!” I had to leave to get to work, but I realized what that point of view meant. The showing of the sole of the shoe is a grave insult in the Middle Eastern world. A gunner would sit in the open doorway and be basically thumbing their noses at the Iraqi people every instant as they flew over.[ul][li]Do you think this really occurred?[_]What percentage of Iraqi/Muslim/Middle-Eastern/etc. people would actually think Americans were trying to be insulting versus just being obliviously insensitive?[_]What other customs and deeply held beliefs do you think Americans don’t know or ignore that engender hatred in other peoples?[/ul] **Stream-of-conscious** :[/li]I was thinking about how I’m oblivious to some things and how I treat other things lightly. If someone flipped me the bird I would just ignore them, not want to kill them. But if someone tries to cut me off in traffic, I’ll block them. I’m “anonymous” in my car, but if I had to wear a priests collar while driving I wouldn’t be so aggressive because I wouldn’t want anyone to think badly about a “priest.” As an American I think we, as a culture, typically allow just about anything to be said and done. We want to be open-minded and tolerant, as long as we’re still invited to parties. Then someone calls our values or ethics into question according to their values and ethics. We want to be liked, if not necessarily by our accuser then by our own friends. We worry that our friends might get a bad or wrong idea about us and - not like us. So we bend over backward and become Politically-Correct. We squash ideas under doctrine and legislation so that we don’t have to take a stand. The war in Iraq is about liberation, and about the oil, and about terror, and about business, and about rights, and about what’s good for you, and about control, and about freedom, and about a lot of things. What values do you think people are imposing in this war, and when do people back down because they just want to be liked? When do we stand for our convictions against all odds, and when do we sell out a good idea for what we think is a greater ideal? When do the means justify the end, and when does the end justify the means? [sub]Well, no need for any more threads now. I’ve just about put every question in this one. 🙂 … Good thing those helicopters weren’t playing the theme from _Apocalypse Now!_ or this discussion would deteriorate really quickly.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/2 "2003-11-05T16:43:50Z")
I do not believe for a minute that the Iraqis hate the Americans because they fly over Iraq dangling their feet out the doors. I believe that is just a silly simplification and Iraqis have more substantial reaons for hating Americans. You know, like Americans having invaded their country and having killed a lot of people and continue to occupy their country and kill people. If Americans had arrived as tourists I can guarantee you they would not be hated like this even if they showed their butts. The war is about money and power, not about a show of feet. And I thought it was American flounder and sole was English. What America has is soul. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/3 "2003-11-05T18:40:29Z")
Except that polls show that most Iraqis are pretty happy with us being, and in fact, want more of us there. We invaded their country, but we didn’t blow them all to hell and we erased Saddam almost totally from the picture. Fact is, th vast majority of them seem to want us to kill more people, so long as we get rid of the Baathists. Basic point of order: the country wasn’t theirs to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/4 "2003-11-05T19:40:17Z")
**smiling bandit** , I am sure you can provide citations in support of your assertions. American forces are under attack daily and it is quite clear the attackers have the help of the local population. If the locals denounced the attackers, the Americans would catch them easily. After every attack you see Iraqis cheering. The most recent case was with the downed helicopter. Not long ago I saw a swarm of children who were throwing stones at an American vehicle which had hit a mine and the soldiers had to fire their weapons to turn them away. We have all seen and heard about many instances of anti-American demonstrations. Now please tell me where you have seen the pro-American demonstrations. Tell me where you have seen Iraqis come rushing to help the Americans. Where and when they had massive pro-American demonstrations. Please explain why those Iraqis who have helped Americans are being given visas to live in America because they fear for their safety in Iraq. Please provide ample evidence to support your assertions which go so much against all the evidence we are seeing. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/5 "2003-11-05T21:16:38Z")
No doubt simplification of real situation. But, this reminds me how at the beginning of the occupation there was some grief because the troops were wasting their time ripping up a Bush Sr. mosaic instead of stopping looting. Seems the floor mosaic (thus having people walk on his face) was deemed plenty insulting to the ol’ Pres. 🙂 Oh **smiling bandit** , have you heard that the Iraqi’s all want their daughters to marry American soldiers and start making American babies? Don’t have a cite handy. Everything is gonna be aaaalright. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/6 "2003-11-06T00:34:03Z")
Well, regardless of the standard issues regarding the war that this thread has already raised, the “story” from the OP is bullshit. Even in 'Nam it was pretty rare for a gunner to hang his feet out the side of a Huey. I have never seen a photo of a Blackhawk where the gunner was dangling his legs. And, of course, the Chinook (the actual copter that was shot down) rarely even carries a side-door gunner. This is an invention by someone who wants to create a situation, either by portraying the U.S. as so culturally ignorant that they would insult people while utterly oblivious of their own actions or by portraying the Iraqis as so backwards as to take offense from points of “honor” that are simply ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![radar\_ralf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b2d939/32.png) [@radar\_ralf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/radar_ralf)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/7 "2003-11-06T07:17:42Z")
**tomndebb** , yessir, you are correct about the door gunners, but "legs| will sometimes sit with their feet dangling out the door. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/8 "2003-11-06T14:09:36Z")
**sailor** , it’s interesting that you don’t see any need to provide a cite for your assertations that the Iraqis hate the Americans. You also insist that **smiling bandit** provide a cite for his claims that the opposite is in fact true. BTW, he is right, and you are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Corner\_Case](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/corner_case/32/234_2.png) [@Corner\_Case](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corner_Case)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/9 "2003-11-06T14:12:47Z")
**tomndebb** , Good to know, thanks. I’ve heard about the showing-the-shoe-is-an-insult, but it’s hard to believe it could be taken so seriously. Then I think that with people all around you dieing that you could see life as cheap and take the little things to heart. But here I am, safe and sound, walking down aisles filled with food, rinsing leftover food down the sink with lots of water and I don’t know what their life is like. And I’m not going to apologize or feel guilty for having a nice life either. And that’s my sad point. It’s **so** hard to know what’s true and what’s false. Every news media, government office, watchdog group, and pro-/anti-whatever just want to portray the events and ideas that serve their own cause. It’s so hard to find plain facts so that I can make up my _own_ mind. I am thinking that maybe I need to find the most pro-site and most anti-site on an issue so that I can see what each side has to say and compare-and-constrast. Unfortunately, just like stores that say “We guarantee the lowest price [sub]on the same item[/sub],” they only stock the item that is purchased for their chain. Since it seems to be hard to find fair-and-balanced information, do you think it’s a productive idea to find pro- and anti- sites to try to get diametric viewpoints so that I could just get some _facts_ to be able to form my _own_ opinions? Does anyone have recommendations for sites that they think are fair-and-balanced? Does anyone have recommendations for sites that they think are pro- and anti-? _If you’ want to mention really nutty sites, go ahead, but please mark which are for entertainment purposes and which are your real recommendation, thanks_ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/10 "2003-11-06T15:49:58Z")
Its perfectly true that in some parts of Iraq people hate us. But then, some parts of Iraq had it pretty good under Saddam. Because, after all, even the worst, most inhuman son-of-a-\*\*\*\*\* needs his home base. And Saddam’s was -and is- Tikrit. these people didn’t get purged quite like the the rest of Iraq. They didn’t revolt, and they weren’t butchered. They were Saddam’s loyal minions, because they got everything in return. There’s a place in Iraq - well, an artificial region - called the Baathist Triangle. It stretches from Tikrit to some other place I can’t recall, to a small section of Bagdad. And that area has been _by far_ the most dangerous in Iraq. fact is, the poeple who are fighting us are figthing us not because of some noble ideal that we mercilessly crushed, but because we took away their rights to money, power, and control. The people of Iraq didn’t own Iraq. The Baathists did. They killed thousands in horrific ways over the last ten years, and they have no qualms about killing us to get their filthy hands back to the ability to kill thousands more. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/11 "2003-11-06T18:09:47Z")
So is the “Baathist Triangle” the new better-optics name for the “Sunni Triangle”? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/12 "2003-11-06T19:53:05Z")
I get confused as to which ones are the Shi’ites and which are Sunni. I thought the Kurds were Sunni, too? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/13 "2003-11-06T20:10:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Corner Case \* > I’ve heard about the showing-the-shoe-is-an-insult, but it’s hard to believe it could be taken so seriously. Like burning the American flag? Or portraying Ronald Reagan as less-than-saintly? > [@](#): > > Since it seems to be hard to find fair-and-balanced information, do you think it’s a productive idea to find pro- and anti- sites to try to get diametric viewpoints so that I could just get some _facts_ to be able to form my _own_ opinions? The BBC remains my first choice for balanced reporting. Barring that, the SDMB is a good source as well, if only because people here are conditioned to back up their arguments with data. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/14 "2003-11-06T20:29:23Z")
I dissent. The [MH-6 “Little Bird”](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/ah-6.htm) is the vehicle of choice for Delta Force troops. Because of the extreme small size of the craft, it is designed to accomodate up to [six passengers](http://w1.270.telia.com/~u27010324/helis/mh-6.html) by having them sit on [bench seats above the landing rails](http://www.specialforces.net/army/soar/), and the passengers [definitely dangle their feet](http://www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/gallery/fortbragg/gallery/29a6.shtml). The passengers can also provide small-arms fire support in flight. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2003, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/15 "2003-11-06T23:44:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > **sailor** , it’s interesting that you don’t see any need to provide a cite for your assertations that the Iraqis hate the Americans. You also insist that **smiling bandit** provide a cite for his claims that the opposite is in fact true. > > BTW, he is right, and you are wrong. “Assertations” is not an English word. Let’s start with that. I get very tired of people asking for citations and when I provide plenty of them they do not acknowledge them or admit their error. They just disappear from the thread and go and repeat the same crap in other threads where we start the same song and dance all over again. If you want citations all you have to do is search for my posts because there are plenty of them. If you are saying Iraqis are not attacking Americans, Iraqis are not demonstrating against Americans, Iraqis are demonstration in favor of Americans, that is an extraordinary assertion which goes against everything we are reading and seeing these days and such an extraordinary assertion is what requires proof. On the other hand, do you really need proof that Iraqis are attacking and killing Americans daily? Do you really need proof that the US command has recently said attacks are increasing to about 30 - 35 daily? Don’t you read the news? Haven’t you seen footage of anti-American demonstrations almost daily? What world do you live in? Here’s a sample: > [@](#): > > [http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=42858&GRP=A](http://www.chinapost.com.tw/detail.asp?ID=42858&GRP=A) > > On Sunday, insurgents shot down a U.S. Ch-47 Chinook helicopter just south of the city, killing 15 soldiers and injuring about 20 in the deadliest single attack on American forces since the war began. > > Days later, villagers were still gloating. > > “America is the biggest Satan and it must leave Iraq,” Khaled Hussein, 26, said. “We celebrate while America is in mourning.” His friend Maher Abbas, 24, chimed in: “God willing, we will do it again.” > . . . . > “Fallujah will always be a grave for the Americans,” > . . . . > Relations between the Americans and Fallujah residents began to sour in April when soldiers fired into a crowd on two successive days, killing 18 and wounding scores. > . . . . . > “Fallujah does not accept occupation or enslavement,” declared a police captain from behind his desk at the office of the U.S.-backed mayor. “Everyone who is involved in the resistance is a proud Iraqi fighting for his nation,” said the captain who, like many in Fallujah these days, did not want to be identified. And that’s the police captain who was, I assume, the most sympathetic the US could find. There is a [thread in the pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221098) where we are discussing Iraqis cheering when the Chinook helicopter was downed killing 16 Americans. TV regularly shows footage of Iraqis cheering after successful attacks against Americans. I remember mentioning one where a swarm of children started throwing rocks against American soldiers who fired shots into the air to disperse them. Then you have the riots like the one where a police station was attacked. You didn’t see the TV footage? [US troops shoot Iraqi protestors. According to the Red Cross and a local hospital director, troops killed 15 people and wounded some 75 others.](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/shooting_04-29-03.html) Are you saying all the attacks are carried out by a small minority with no support from the population? I’ll tell you what. In this and other threads I have provided citations showing Americans are not welcome in Iraq. I am confident I can provide two citations supporting that for every one you provide to the contrary. Let us see of you can so the same. Provide two citations for every one of mine showing Iraqis love Americans. Show they are not attacking them but helping them, Show Iraqis in mourning for American casualties, Show they demonstrate in favor of Americans and against those who attack Americans. Let’s see who runs out of citations first. Your turn. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/16 "2003-11-07T01:25:47Z")
> [@](#): > > [http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/9810.htm](http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/9810.htm) > > Some villagers proudly showed off blackened pieces of the Chinook’s wreckage to arriving reporters. Although a few villagers tried to help, many celebrated word of the helicopter downing, as well as the separate attack in Fallujah. > > “This was a new lesson from the resistance, a lesson to the greedy aggressors,” said one Fallujah resident. "They’ll never be safe until they get out of our country. Since I cannot post photos here I have made a web page where I have posted some photos and their captions. > [@](#): > > [http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/images/iraq01.htm](http://sailor.teemingmillions.com/images/iraq01.htm) > [Photo of US soldier with his rifle point blank on an Iraqi’s chest and the Iraqi is defiant] > An Iraqi man detained for shouting slogans against occupation during a demonstration refuses to sit down when ordered by a U.S. Army soldier in central Baghdad October 15, 2003. The sign at rear reads in Arabic, ‘We will win’ War in Iraq. > > [Photo of Iraqis celebrating on wreckage of US vehicle] > Iraqis celebrate with a burned out rocket while cheering and dancing atop a burned out U.S. Army military ammunition truck after it was blown up in Fallujah Oct. 19, 2003, > > [Photo of anti-American demonstration] > Shiite Muslim Iraqis raise their fists skywards as they chant anti-US slogans during a protest in Baghdad against the arrest of two clerics by US troops. And a bunch of citations. I anxiously await proof that all this is not representative and that photos of Iraqis showing their love for American troops are more representative. ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/17 "2003-11-07T01:39:23Z")
Regarding the Zogby polls now being used to justify the occupation: > [@](#): > > Mr. Cheney has cited a Zogby International poll to back his claim that there is “very positive news” in Iraq. But the pollster, John Zogby, told me, “I was floored to see the spin that was put on it; some of the numbers were not my numbers at all.” > > Mr. Cheney claimed that Iraqis chose the U.S. as their model for democracy “hands down,” and he and other officials say that a majority want American troops to stay at least another year. In fact, Mr. Zogby said, only 23 percent favor the U.S. democratic model, and 65 percent want the U.S. to leave in a year or less. > > “I am not willing to say they lied,” Mr. Zogby said. “But they used a very tight process of selective screening, and when they didn’t get what they wanted they were willing to manufacture some results. . . . There was almost nothing in that poll to give them comfort.” [-from Zogby Intl.](http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6219) ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/18 "2003-11-07T01:39:42Z")
Regarding the Zogby polls used to justify the occupation: > [@](#): > > Mr. Cheney has cited a Zogby International poll to back his claim that there is “very positive news” in Iraq. But the pollster, John Zogby, told me, “I was floored to see the spin that was put on it; some of the numbers were not my numbers at all.” > > Mr. Cheney claimed that Iraqis chose the U.S. as their model for democracy “hands down,” and he and other officials say that a majority want American troops to stay at least another year. In fact, Mr. Zogby said, only 23 percent favor the U.S. democratic model, and 65 percent want the U.S. to leave in a year or less. > > “I am not willing to say they lied,” Mr. Zogby said. “But they used a very tight process of selective screening, and when they didn’t get what they wanted they were willing to manufacture some results. . . . There was almost nothing in that poll to give them comfort.” [-from Zogby Intl.](http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=6219) ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/19 "2003-11-07T13:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*Except that polls show that most Iraqis are pretty happy with us being, and in fact, want more of us there. We invaded their country, but we didn’t blow them all to hell and we erased Saddam almost totally from the picture. Fact is, th vast majority of them seem to want us to kill more people, so long as we get rid of the Baathists. > > Basic point of order: the country wasn’t theirs to begin with. \*\* I distrust any poll of Iraqis at the present time. I don’t think that the pollsters have any way of knowing what a “random sample” of the Iraqi population is, or contacting the selected individuals in their sample, and I’m not sure that they have enough knowledge about Iraqi society to frame the questions properly. It seems to me they are no better than the man-in-the-street questions you occasionally see in the local newspaper. Those things are crucial and are sometimes screwed up, even in polls of the US population with which poll takers ahve a lot of experience. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564/20 "2003-11-07T14:16:57Z")
> [@](#): > > If you are saying Iraqis are not attacking Americans, Iraqis are not demonstrating against Americans, Iraqis are demonstration in favor of Americans, that is an extraordinary assertion which goes against everything we are reading and seeing these days and such an extraordinary assertion is what requires proof. Since we did not, in fact, deny these things, I submit that you have not added anything to the debate with your wild accusations of ignorance and insanity. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/helicopter-gunships-the-american-sole-and/211564.md?page=2)