# Hell to be Remodeled with 10th Circle, aka The Westboro Baptist Suite **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 10, 2008, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963 "2008-01-10T08:11:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/21 "2008-01-11T04:44:11Z")
I’d agree with that, for the reasons I stated above. However, I will note that the media is pretty reluctant to label any religious movement a cult, as this tends to be a loaded word. in general, I agree with this, but I think it does apply in the Phelps case. ---
**Author:** ![Dinah\_Steeler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Dinah\_Steeler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinah_Steeler)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/22 "2008-01-11T05:34:28Z")
Westboro Baptist “Church” is a cult, not a church. I wouldn’t be surprised to see them go the way of Heaven’s Gate one of these days… I have to say I’m surprised no one has tried to off them at one of their many protests – especially at funerals of those who have died in the war. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/23 "2008-01-11T06:58:48Z")
They should just go ahead and call themselves the Westboro Baptist Cult, and be done with it. C’mon, it would be convenient. They wouldn’t even have to change theri monogram… ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/24 "2008-01-11T11:35:17Z")
So suburban sprawl is coming to hell, eh? I hope this doesn’t affect my property value. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/25 "2008-01-11T12:28:43Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] What bothers me, and this is a bit OT, is that people continue to regard Phelps et al. as a mainline church. (Not people in this thread, but generally.) I think it’s a matter of terminology. I wish people would stop referring to them as a “Baptist Church” just because they claim to be. They have no affiliation to any legitimate Baptist Church, all of whom vehemently disavow them. They are a cult, no more no less, and I think they would not be taken so seriously, or taken seriously at all, if they were referred to as a cult instead of a church. [/QUOTE] I was under the impression that Baptists pride themselves on their segmentability: if you don’t like the pastor at your church, you can always split off. In any case, I think it’s not helpful to deny that they’re a church. They’re also a cult, but they have a church building, meet on Sundays, worship their understanding of a Christian god, etc. They’re nutty assholes, but they’re also a church. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/26 "2008-01-11T14:47:01Z")
[QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] In any case, I think it’s not helpful to deny that they’re a church. They’re also a cult, but they have a church building, meet on Sundays, worship their understanding of a Christian god, etc. They’re nutty assholes, but they’re also a church. [/QUOTE] Everything you said applies to Jim Jones as well. Would you play these semantic games with the old Peoples Temple? ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/27 "2008-01-11T18:25:16Z")
You know, I wonder how miserable Phelps must be. He has no joy in his life. Everything is done in fear of his God. How colorless his existence must be. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/28 "2008-01-11T18:35:14Z")
[QUOTE=matt\_mcl] It works on the same principle as the idea that God chose to punish America for tolerating homosexuality by permitting the World Trade Center to be destroyed, and not, say, Greenwich Village. [/QUOTE] But, see, this is God’s dilemma: He hates sodomy, but he loves fabulousness. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/29 "2008-01-11T19:20:44Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] But, see, this is God’s dilemma: He hates sodomy, but he loves fabulousness. [/QUOTE] Explains that neat stuff the Pope wears. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/30 "2008-01-11T19:25:11Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Explains that neat stuff the Pope wears. [/QUOTE] Best of both worlds, as far as the Church goes: take some very old man that nobody would ever actually want to sleep with, and stick him in retro-drag. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/31 "2008-01-11T20:05:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] Everything you said applies to Jim Jones as well. Would you play these semantic games with the old Peoples Temple? [/QUOTE] Okay; explain why the Westboro Baptist Church is not a church. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/32 "2008-01-11T20:07:39Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Best of both worlds, as far as the Church goes: take some very old man that nobody would ever actually want to sleep with, and stick him in retro-drag. [/QUOTE] Between this and **Kythereia** ’s comment, I’m not going to be able to ever set foot in a Catholic church again. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/33 "2008-01-11T20:08:08Z")
[QUOTE=Kythereia] As an Anglican, I believe in both. And smile and smile to myself at the thought of Phelps dying and going up to Heaven… only to meet God looking fabulous in a floor-length backless red Chanel and pumps. [/QUOTE] As a believer in re-incarnation, I think it would go more like: “Sorry, God isn’t ready to see you yet. He says you have to go back to Earth and try again.” ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/34 "2008-01-11T20:47:42Z")
[QUOTE=Baldwin] Okay; explain why the Westboro Baptist Church is not a church. [/QUOTE] Okay, explain how they are not a cult? I said above that the term cult was somewhat problematic - it is a loaded expression with a generally negative connotation when used to describe a religious movement. At best it describes a group way out of the religious mainstream, at worst it connotes a group that is abusive and controlling to its members. Still, in the case of the Westboro Baptist Church, I think all of these things apply - the group isn’t mainstream, it is abusive, and it controls its members. Calling it a cult would be a fair description. And this description hits much closer to the mark than just calling them a church, since churches by and large do not operate out of the religious mainstream or exert these kinds of controls on their members. Now, certainly lots of exceptions can be found that will muddy this discussion quite a bit if we let it. These kinds of matters are why this is such a heated topic in the first place, and why you hear far more these days about New Religious Movements than you do of religious cults. Still, I think we ought to describe things as they are - and Phelps runs a cult. That’s just about the simplest way to describe it. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/35 "2008-01-11T21:04:12Z")
[QUOTE=Kythereia] As an Anglican, I believe in both. And smile and smile to myself at the thought of Phelps dying and going up to Heaven… only to meet God looking fabulous in a floor-length backless red Chanel and pumps. [/QUOTE] Add a salacious smile and a strap-on to that, and picture the look on Phelps’ face. :eek: Ready, Freddy? ---
**Author:** ![Mytoehurts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mytoehurts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mytoehurts)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/36 "2008-01-11T21:13:21Z")
A cult is just a religion with logical consistency. Arguing the point will never get anyone anywhere as the discussion threatens both atheists and the religious. I am surprised that no one joins the church to get hitched to one of the younger Phelpses, such as the pretty one on the Louis Theroux documentary. The things you could get away with doing to her… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/37 "2008-01-11T21:52:15Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] You know, I wonder how miserable Phelps must be. He has no joy in his life. Everything is done in fear of his God. How colorless his existence must be. [/QUOTE] No, Phelps gets plenty of enjoyment out of life. He’s a sadist, he enjoys the suffering and pain of other people. He especially enjoys making people hate his family, because he enjoys the pain his family causes to other people, and he enjoys the pain his family suffers when they experience the hatred of everyone else. As for the discussion of whether this is a church or a cult, remember that the church is composed pretty much exclusively of Phelps and his family. This makes them different from most other cults in that they don’t try to maintain an attractive facade for the outside world in order to lure in new recruits. Almost no one joins the church, rather they’re born into it. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Priori\_Tea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@A\_Priori\_Tea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Priori_Tea)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2008, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/38 "2008-01-11T22:19:26Z")
According to [Merriam-Webster](http://m-w.com/dictionary/cult) , a cult is: 1: formal religious veneration : worship 2: a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents 3: a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents 4: a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator \ 5 a: great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b: the object of such devotion c: a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion Given common usage, I think meanings 3 and 5 are what most people think of when they say “cult.” According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church) , the WBC engages in the following specific practices: > [@](#): > > Phelps does not permit Westboro members to marry persons outside the church. As relatively few individuals have joined Westboro, there have been at least two marriages between the Phelps and Hockenbarger clans, resulting in some members having dual genealogical relationships. In the documentary The Most Hated Family in America, the young girls in the church express no interest in getting married, because “that’s not what we are about” and “we’re living in the last of the last days, times are very short”. > [@](#): > > The group carries out daily picketing in Topeka (purportedly six per day with fifteen on Sunday, “Lord willing”, according to the index page of its main website) and travels nationally to picket the funerals of homosexual victims of murder, homosexual-bashing or death related to AIDS, as well as other events related or appearing to be related to homosexual people. They have been known to protest outside theaters in Topeka, under the premise that live theatres (especially Broadway musical productions) are a haven for homosexuality, as well as protesting at Kansas City Chiefs football games, and live pop concerts in Topeka. … Recently, they have shifted their interest to picketing at the funerals of soldiers killed in the Iraq War, believing this to be more of “God’s judgment” on America. > [@](#): > > The Westboro Baptist Church attributes membership in most religious groups, such as the Roman Catholic Church or Islam, as akin to devil worship. All non-Christian entities, non-Protestant Christian churches, as well as all Protestant Christian churches which do not strongly condemn homosexuality, are said to be sending their members to Hell. The Westboro Baptist Church teaches that menstruation is a curse from God upon lustful women. Phelps teaches that God cursed Eve with a curse of blood. In the group’s teachings if a woman stays ‘pure’ then she will never menstruate. Just these tenets are proof (at least in my eyes) that the WBC’s leadership structure is based on forcibly separating the cult members from their money, their individual identity, their chance of ever socializing with the outside world, and forcing them to comply with the strictures the cult places on their everyday behavior through undue social pressure. This differs from the practices of established churches with voluntary membership significantly enough to warrant a change of noun. There is very little comparison between what the WBC does and what a mainstream church does, primarily because of the amount of coercion used on the members to achieve the leadership’s goals. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/39 "2008-01-12T13:22:39Z")
[QUOTE=Mytoehurts] A cult is just a religion with logical consistency. [/QUOTE] This doesn’t even pretend to make sense. There is really only one definition of the word that makes any kind of coherent sense: “A group of people that engage in controlling, abusive behavior designed to isolate members from the outside world and make them follow a religious path.” Any other definition is just as stupid as the one promulgated by **Mytoehurts** above and can only serve to muddy the waters. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963/40 "2008-01-12T17:37:20Z")
Cults don’t have to be religious. They take on religious trappings, but it’s entirely possible to have Personality Cults, where they follow, say, Stephen Hawking like a god. I’d change it to ‘fanatical’ path. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-to-be-remodeled-with-10th-circle-aka-the-westboro-baptist-suite/432963.md?page=3)