# Hell. Why is it described as, well, hell? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107 "2010-05-03T02:26:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/21 "2010-05-03T13:00:57Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > It’s late and I have no time yet this evening to go into this in detail. But if you’re interested we can go into each of these texts (including historical and the original source language) and I think you’ll find that there is no biblical support for a burning hell. If you’d like to. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/22 "2010-05-03T14:02:01Z")
Different management styles and different abilities, Satan can not create, so lives in limited resources, arranges things so he is dictator and people (dark angels) under him rule over the population (slave children), which are made into slaves, all providing Satan a fairly nice standard of living. In Hell all are suffering death for Satan to have a life. God makes us as His loved children, He created and creates as much as we want and need, and wants us to be free to explore this universe He made for us to delight in. He wants His children to have the very best, served by angels which we will one day grow into. In Heaven God has suffered death for us all to live eternally. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/23 "2010-05-03T14:07:01Z")
The Sheol of ancient Judaism and the Hades of ancient Greek belief are pretty much the same place. It is a dark and gloomy place in which the dead simply moulder about, with nothing to do, nowhere to go. It is more miserable than painful. Prior to the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, a number of Jewish works (that were never later accepted as Scripture by Jews or Christians) began using different images to describe punishment of sinners. Borrowing from the image of Gehennon, a valley, south of Jerusalem, where trash had been dumped for many years and where rubbish fires continued to burn pretty much all the time, very evil people were described as being thrown like rubbish onto those fires. Later, in apocalyptic works such as Assumption of Moses and the Syriac Apocalypse of Baruch, there are cryptic references, using that imagery, of the fires burning for all times. To the extent that theological commentators of the time paid any attention to the issue, they appear to have held that while the fires were eternal, the people thrown into those fires would be burnt up, rather than being held in eternal torment. In Esdras, Gehenna is identified as a furnace that is in sight of Paradise–an image that Jesus uses in the parable of the rich man and the beggar (Chapter 16). 1 Enoch makes several references to Gehenna as a place of torment and punishment. The concept of punishment being eternal is not explicit in the Christian scriptures. The fires are described as everlasting, but those passages do not describe the sinners, themselves, burning forever. Matthew 25:46 makes a reference to “everlasting punishment,” but that phrase has been held to have two different meanings: that the punishment, inflicting pain, would go on for all time or that the punishment, annihilation, was irreversible and would stand for all time. Whether Christians added the notion of eternal punishment in later centuries or whether they borrowed popular imagery that was extant in the first century cannot be reliably established. Talking about what “the Jews” believed or what “the Christians” believed is rather pointless. There were many different beliefs held by various groups and there is not really a reliable way to determine when a specific belief arose, down to the month and year. It is true that mainstream Judaism of the time did not hold that the afterlife included eternal punishment for sinners and that that belief arose within Christianity, but setting a date for that belief–possibly springing from Mt 25:46, either as it was understood or misunderstood by later readers–is not really possible unless we suddenly stumble on a Dead Sea Scrolls-like trove of first or second century Christian writings–including arguments showing the discussion. ETA: Part of the discussion of early texts is confusing because they frequently used Matthew’s phrase of “eternal punishment” and juxtapose it against phrases of “eternal life.” The inference that has typically been drawn has been that the two situations, both eternal, corresponded to what happened to the person in those situations forever. There are a number of passages from multiple Christian authors from around the middle of the second century that use those images. Whether they saw the “eternal punishment” as torment or annihilation must be inferred based on the inclinations of the reader because the authors tended to assume their audience would understand their text and they do not tend to explain their remarks more clearly. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/24 "2010-05-03T14:22:29Z")
Most of the images people have of Hell in modern times have very little resemblence to the “Hell” of the Christian or Jewish scriptures. **Raindog** and **Tomndeb** are correct. Most of the popular concept of hell comes from Dante and other literary sources. You won’t find a description of Hell as a place of eternal torment in the bible (as Tomndeb notes). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/25 "2010-05-03T14:29:07Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Different management styles and different abilities, Satan can not create, so lives in limited resources, arranges things so he is dictator and people (dark angels) under him rule over the population (slave children), which are made into slaves, all providing Satan a fairly nice standard of living. In Hell all are suffering death for Satan to have a life. I don’t suppose you have a Biblical cite for all this? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/26 "2010-05-03T14:59:00Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > That would be taking things a bit too far. Satan has significant influence on Earth, and for the moment he is more overtly powerful, but that doesn’t mean Earth is Hell. CS Lewis played with the analogy of Earth to Vichy France, where the dominant politics and culture are those of the Enemy, while the good guys bide their time and send coded messages and hidden assistance to those who are able and willing to receive it. In _The Great Divorce_, C.S. Lewis also conceived of Hell as simply the absence of salvation. People aren’t punished as such, they’re just lost and discontented. He didn’t see Hell as permanent, either; one could still be saved, if one was truly willing to be. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/27 "2010-05-03T18:52:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I don’t suppose you have a Biblical cite for all this? Yes, actually many, as it’s all the same thing, testimony about Jesus. May I suggest reading about the Israelites in Egypt to see how the satanic system works, where Pharaoh is, where God’s children are and where the Egyptians are. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/28 "2010-05-03T18:55:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes, actually many, as it’s all the same thing, testimony about Jesus. May I suggest reading about the Israelites in Egypt to see how the satanic system works, where Pharaoh is, where God’s children are and where the Egyptians are. May I suggest that you cite a Biblical verse that supports what you said? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/29 "2010-05-03T19:00:24Z")
Pointing at the bible and saying “it’s in there somewhere” isn’t a cite, **kanicbird**. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/30 "2010-05-03T19:09:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Pointing at the bible and saying “it’s in there somewhere” isn’t a cite, **kanicbird**. I guess it beats actually opening the thing up and _reading_ it. ---
**Author:** ![crypto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b3f665/32.png) [@crypto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crypto)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/31 "2010-05-03T19:21:21Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The Sheol of ancient Judaism and the Hades of ancient Greek belief are pretty much the same place. It is a dark and gloomy place in which the dead simply moulder about, with nothing to do, nowhere to go. It is more miserable than painful. > > \ > > It is true that mainstream Judaism of the time did not hold that the afterlife included eternal punishment for sinners and that that belief arose within Christianity, but setting a date for that belief–possibly springing from Mt 25:46, either as it was understood or misunderstood by later readers–is not really possible unless we suddenly stumble on a Dead Sea Scrolls-like trove of first or second century Christian writings–including arguments showing the discussion. > > . two things jumped out at me from this post. If your first paragraph is taken at face value, what would be the difference between heaven and hell? I think eternity in heaven would be just as miserable, with nothing to do and nowhere to go. Even if it’s less “gloomy”, I’ve never been under the impression that there were activities to sign up for. Doing just about ANYTHING for eternity would get to be miserable, wouldn’t it? From the second paragraph I pulled out, if judaism did not hold that the afterlife included eternal punishment for sinners, then 1) what DID it hold for sinners, and 2) what was the motivation for the average jew to love thy neighbor and play by the rules? The concept of Hell seems to work only if there is punishment for actions during your life on earth. Without a threat of punishment, why would a jew think he had to follow the commandments? ---
**Author:** ![I\_know\_nothing\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/d78d45/32.png) [@I\_know\_nothing\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_know_nothing_1)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/32 "2010-05-03T20:12:34Z")
I think satan is more like a serial killer and less like a landlord. Do the other inmates welcome a new prisoner with gifts and charity? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/33 "2010-05-03T20:14:48Z")
> [@Stink Fish Pot](#): > > 1. what was the motivation for the average jew to love thy neighbor and play by the rules? The concept of Hell seems to work only if there is punishment for actions during your life on earth. Without a threat of punishment, why would a jew think he had to follow the commandments? One or more of the following: 1. Because, if you want to live in a society, and get along with your neighbors and avoid punishment, you’d better obey the Law. 2. Because God promised to bless, protect, and look with favor on his people (individually and/or collectively) when they behaved righteously and obeyed his law, and to punish or abandon them if they did not. 3. Because it’s the right thing to do. If an atheist can live morally without threat of eternal punishment, why can’t a Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/34 "2010-05-03T20:28:57Z")
Ok, so this is going to sound like I pulled it completely out of my ass, but I remember seeing a History Channel documentary once, years ago, in which it was implied that the Hebrew word that is often translated as hell was actually the name of a site near Jesus’ stomping grounds. It was, in essence, a garbage dump, that was always on fire. So the theory was that Jesus used the garbage dump as a kind of metaphor, which is one possible reason we have this idea of hell as burning and sulfur and horriblness. Does anybody know if this has any truth to it? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/35 "2010-05-03T20:33:16Z")
[Gehenna](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna) ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/36 "2010-05-03T20:34:50Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Ok, so this is going to sound like I pulled it completely out of my ass, but I remember seeing a History Channel documentary once, years ago, in which it was implied that the Hebrew word that is often translated as hell was actually the name of a site near Jesus’ stomping grounds. It was, in essence, a garbage dump, that was always on fire. > > So the theory was that Jesus used the garbage dump as a kind of metaphor, which is one possible reason we have this idea of hell as burning and sulfur and horriblness. > > Does anybody know if this has any truth to it? Who knew they had tire fires back then? ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/37 "2010-05-03T20:36:56Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Ok, so this is going to sound like I pulled it completely out of my ass, but I remember seeing a History Channel documentary once, years ago, in which it was implied that the Hebrew word that is often translated as hell was actually the name of a site near Jesus’ stomping grounds. It was, in essence, a garbage dump, that was always on fire. > > So the theory was that Jesus used the garbage dump as a kind of metaphor, which is one possible reason we have this idea of hell as burning and sulfur and horriblness. > > Does anybody know if this has any truth to it? There are basically 2 ‘forms’ of hell in the bible; one that is the nothing more than the grave essentially, and one that is where you go for complete, irredeemable, eternal destruction. The second version of hell is Gehenna, which was in the valley of Hinnom (sp?), and as others have pointed out was basically a garbage dump outside the city walls. Sulfur was used to burn the garbage, and criminals deemed not worthy of a burial were dumped to be burned. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/38 "2010-05-03T20:43:53Z")
Satan is not the landlord. He is not even in hell. No one is yet. Satan is wandering the earth diverting everyone he can to his path. He was given respite by God till Judgement Day. It is only on Judgement Day, after the second coming of Jesus that we will all be judged. The end of the world. Then Satan and his followers will be sent to hell. I truly believe that American/Israeli Foreign Policy will bring about the end of the world ☹ ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/39 "2010-05-03T20:45:30Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Pointing at the bible and saying “it’s in there somewhere” isn’t a cite, **kanicbird**. Actually it is when that’s what was asked. You can read about the world system, and the ruler of this world in so many places. You can see aspects of the slavery issue in PS 107, which was what I read this morning. It shows how God will deliver people once the people ask. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107/40 "2010-05-03T20:46:56Z")
Jewish concept of sin is very different from Christianity. We typically do not believe that sin is a black mark on your soul. In Judaism, sin simply means “missing the mark”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hell-why-is-it-described-as-well-hell/538107.md?page=3)