# Hello and good-bye **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 23, 2012, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026 "2012-06-23T04:20:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/41 "2012-06-23T18:34:29Z")
I make a meal for my friends Try to make it delicious Try to keep it nutritious Create wonderful dishes Not one of them thinks about the way I feel Nobody compliments the meal I got hurt feelings I got hurt feelings I feel like a prize asshole No one even mentions my casserole I got hurt feelings I got hurt feelings You could’ve said something nice about my profiteroles. -Hurt Feelings, Flight of The Conchords And if that’s all it takes to make you leave, then door…ass…etc. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/42 "2012-06-23T23:02:53Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > I know it’s totally off-topic but dispute is only by Israeli State officials. There is no dispute that any collective punishment is generally, an illegitimate form of punishment under any conditions. Are United States’ RICOH laws an illegitimate form of punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/43 "2012-06-23T23:23:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Are United States’ RICOH laws an illegitimate form of punishment? Well, the people caught up in RICOH cases aren’t exactly innocent bystanders. The prosecution has to demonstrate that they play an active role of some kind in the overall criminal enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/44 "2012-06-23T23:28:09Z")
Guys, “Ricoh” is a company that makes printers and such, “RICO” is the acronym used to refer to the [Rackateer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act). ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/45 "2012-06-23T23:31:08Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, the people caught up in RICOH cases aren’t exactly innocent bystanders. The prosecution has to demonstrate that they play an active role of some kind in the overall criminal enterprise. Not true. If someone used your house, without your knowledge, to further some criminal enterprise, it can be confiscated, in spite of you being innocent of any criminal involvement. [http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179.html](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179.html) But the oldest and most frequently used form of forfeiture–civil forfeiture-- is not targeted at criminally culpable property owners. Instead, as discussed below, civil forfeiture laws apply indiscriminately to property, regardless of the innocence of the owner, and render it subject to forfeiture if it is used unlawfully by anyone. Thus, the family home is fair game for forfeiture if a son, relative, or friend were to use it unlawfully–say, by using the telephone to arrange a drug purchase. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/46 "2012-06-23T23:32:12Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Guys, “Ricoh” is a company that makes printers and such, “RICO” is the acronym used to refer to the [Rackateer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act). Yes my bad. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/47 "2012-06-24T00:18:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Not true. If someone used your house, without your knowledge, to further some criminal enterprise, it can be confiscated, in spite of you being innocent of any criminal involvement. > > [http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179.html](http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179.html) > > But the oldest and most frequently used form of forfeiture–civil forfeiture-- is not targeted at criminally culpable property owners. Instead, as discussed below, civil forfeiture laws apply indiscriminately to property, regardless of the innocence of the owner, and render it subject to forfeiture if it is used unlawfully by anyone. Thus, the family home is fair game for forfeiture if a son, relative, or friend were to use it unlawfully–say, by using the telephone to arrange a drug purchase. That article is dated 1992 and is out of date. In 2000, a law known as the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act (CAFRA) was passed by President Clinton. In CAFRA, being an innocent owner is codified as a defense to civil forfeiture under Federal law. However it is an affirmative defense, meaning, it is not enough to cast doubt on the accusations with some evidence; the person claiming to be an innocent owner must prove it by preponderance of the credible evidence. Among other reforms, CAFRA puts some time limits on the government’s ability to pursue a forfeiture, and provides that the claimant can recover attorney’s fees if they win. [Here, read all about it, from the POV of a forfeiture defense practiotiner.](http://www.kessleronforfeiture.com/civil-asset-forfeiture-reform-act-of-2000/) [full text of CAFRA here](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-106publ185/pdf/PLAW-106publ185.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/48 "2012-06-24T01:02:40Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > That article is dated 1992 and is out of date. In 2000, a law known as the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act (CAFRA) was passed by President Clinton. > > In CAFRA, being an innocent owner is codified as a defense to civil forfeiture under Federal law. However it is an affirmative defense, meaning, it is not enough to cast doubt on the accusations with some evidence; the person claiming to be an innocent owner must prove it by preponderance of the credible evidence. Among other reforms, CAFRA puts some time limits on the government’s ability to pursue a forfeiture, and provides that the claimant can recover attorney’s fees if they win. > [Here, read all about it, from the POV of a forfeiture defense practiotiner.](http://www.kessleronforfeiture.com/civil-asset-forfeiture-reform-act-of-2000/) > [full text of CAFRA here](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-106publ185/pdf/PLAW-106publ185.pdf) Yes, but, as you pointed out, the owner has the burden of proving himself innocent under CAFRA. If you try to interpolate this to the Israeli case, most family members know very well of the suicide bomber’s activities and affiliations, and in most cases celebrate their “martyrdom”. Kinda hard to prove that they are “innocent owners” and have no involvement at all in the criminal activity. Also - CAFRA is federal law. States have laws that are much looser and easier on the government - in a lot of them the state has only to show probable cause to confiscate property and the property owner has a higher burden to prove his innocence. For example: [Iowa](http://fear.org/legisas.html). “Under state law, the prosecutor must only show that the property is related to criminal activity and can be forfeited by a preponderance of the evidence. Once the prosecutor meets that burden, the burden is on the property owner to show his innocence, or in other words, **that he did not know and could not have reasonably known of the conduct or that he acted reasonably to prevent the conduct giving rise to the forfeiture.** ” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/49 "2012-06-24T01:26:16Z")
The OP came back for that? Lick my nuts and kiss off, duck-sodomizer. You are a waste of electrons. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/50 "2012-06-24T20:56:46Z")
Palestine is not subject to US law, nor Israeli law, but to [international law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict#Legal_status). ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/51 "2012-06-24T23:06:08Z")
No idea who you are but goodbye anyway. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/52 "2012-06-25T15:20:57Z")
At least now I won’t be getting confused by the similiar poster, olivesmarch\* :):smack: ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/53 "2012-06-25T15:56:13Z")
Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/54 "2012-06-25T16:07:39Z")
Later dude. Enjoy the rest of the net - it’s a big place. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/55 "2012-06-25T17:56:09Z")
Said the tuna to the dolphin. ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/56 "2012-06-25T18:08:30Z")
> [@](#): > > It is amazing how someone can always find a nitpick to prove that Israel has never ever done anything wrong. Maybe [Reddit - The heart of the internet](http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews) might be more to your liking if you’re looking to mix with the “Israel has never done anything _right_” crowd. Door, ass, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_Coward](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/94ad74/32.png) [@Anonymous\_Coward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_Coward)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/57 "2012-06-25T18:30:00Z")
Message Received. Over and out. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026/58 "2012-06-25T18:44:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Someone find out where he lives so we can bulldoze his house. I snorted out loud. ETA: I’m going to start abbreviating that to “snolled.” > [@Anonymous\_Coward](#): > > Message Received. Over and out. Over and under. Then the bunny rabbit runs through the hoop. Sorry, got a little random there for a moment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-and-good-bye/626026.md?page=2)