# Hello Universe? Can we get some better Trump defenders on this board? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663 "2019-12-31T13:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/241 "2020-01-04T05:06:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The oath of office is about stuff you will do in the future. How do you perjure yourself about something that hasn’t happened yet? By never intending to faithfully fulfill the oath, of course. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/242 "2020-01-04T05:35:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Was I being too coy? Margin has been a raging asshole way in excess of what Shodan has exhibited on this thread. Perhaps he is being given a pass because he is in fact mentally unstable and I never got the memo or perhaps it’s because this site is Arrakis for conservatives like Shodan and Disneyland for liberals like margin. I’m a combat veteran who has spoken openly about struggling against PTSD for years-----in the hope that another vet might see and realize that they’re not alone. Half my Iraq company has PTSD. Several killed themselves. I tried four times. Shodan has repeatedly, viciously, attacked me over it. For years. Then he slithers away and pretends----and sometimes protests----that despite his taunts that specify mental illness, he didn’t know. Like he did a few pages ago. If any veterans read this, here is the number that you can call. Press 1, for military. Don’t do something permanent about temporary problems. Call 1-800-273-8255. 24 hours every day. Put that number on speed dial. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/243 "2020-01-04T12:55:06Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > … A rough transcript of the call revealed that Mr Trump had urged President Zelensky to investigate discredited allegations against Joe and Hunter Biden. > > The call came shortly after Mr Trump had blocked the release of millions of dollars in US military aid to Ukraine. A senior official later testified that the president made clear the release of the aid was conditional on Mr Biden being investigated … Nitpick (although your own post goes on to make the point): Trump didn’t actually care about the investigation, which he knew would turn up nothing. What he needed was that _ **Zelensky announce a Biden investigation publicly** _. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/244 "2020-01-04T18:34:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The oath of office is about stuff you will do in the future. How do you perjure yourself about something that hasn’t happened yet? An oath is a promise about the future, which also implies a behavioral past. To break an oath is called perjury. Making this distinction about past vs future behavior might be a good way to split the baby for less important matters, but why would we have an oath for the presidency if it was only about prosepctive matters going forward, which might be successfully defended on technical grounds? Oaths are serious and can’t be parsed like that. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/245 "2020-01-04T19:04:55Z")
There is a reason we would not let Bernie Madoff take the presidential oath. We might believe he can stay out of trouble for four years and not be a bad boy. If he’s potus he won’t need to break the law: potuses and ex potuses all do well financially. So why would we not let him take the oath? Try the thought experiment with any unconvicted criminal type that you can think of. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/246 "2020-01-04T19:26:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yes, clearly. Shodan is being the biggest prick on this thread. You’re right to focus on him for his tone and behavior. :rolleyes: This is also what I said about **Shodan** : > [@](#): > > The squalid, craven little rodent isn’t capable of admitting when he’s wrong. His fragile ego couldn’t bear it. This is why: See posts [#169](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22058683&postcount=169) and [#183](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22058683&postcount=183). He has a history of presenting disingenuous arguments. Accusation stands. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/247 "2020-01-04T19:41:03Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Don’t the fundies only want Israel around for their Rapture? Once that happens, Israel gets wiped off the map. > > I wonder how these Rapture folks feel about the Nazis running under the Repub banner. According to my dad’s beliefs the rapture happens to take all the xtians away, then the 7 year tribulation period happens to punish Israel and to eventually make them all accept Jesus. Then after that is the millennium where Jesus sits on the throne in Jerusalem and the entire world is now under Jewish law. I don’t know if folks like my dad think anyone in the Republican Party is a Nazi. Of course they might all be Nazis themselves, which is why they wouldn’t recognize it. Not sure. But I do know my dad is okay with everything that’s happening. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/248 "2020-01-04T19:55:22Z")
> [@TheMysteryWriter](#): > > According to my dad’s beliefs the rapture happens to take all the xtians away, then the 7 year tribulation period happens to punish Israel and to eventually make them all accept Jesus. Then after that is the millennium where Jesus sits on the throne in Jerusalem and the entire world is now under Jewish law. > > I don’t know if folks like my dad think anyone in the Republican Party is a Nazi. Of course they might all be Nazis themselves, which is why they wouldn’t recognize it. Not sure. But I do know my dad is okay with everything that’s happening. Christians have never forgiven the Jews for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, instead treating him like a naughty little boy. ---
**Author:** ![Anxious\_Squirrel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/anxious_squirrel/32/1083_2.png) [@Anxious\_Squirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anxious_Squirrel)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/249 "2020-01-04T20:00:38Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Christians have never forgiven the Jews for not accepting Jesus as the Messiah, instead treating him like a naughty little boy. _teehee_ ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/250 "2020-01-04T20:18:28Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Ummm biblical? catastrophe? If there is one thing which is unambiguously banned by Jesus, Paul, and the Old Testament, it’s **divorce**. There is no other thing in the whole Bible that we can be more sure of, in the text, in regards to what the Creator of you, your family, your friends, and life on Earth, than that he wants you to pick someone \* and make it work, come hell or high water\*. And you’re not even allowed to murder each other. Argue all you want about taxes, homosexuality, or anything else where religion intersects with the laws that people want to have passed or removed, it would be impossible to explain how we live in a world where there is a greater political effort to establish prayer in schools than there is to ensure that the spiritual bond between a man and a woman is never treated flippantly, never entered into for base needs, and never ever sundered. And that, that sounds like a joke - well, there’s human fidelity to things they don’t want to do, because of their own personal reasons, for you. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/251 "2020-01-04T22:18:09Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And that, that sounds like a joke - well, there’s human fidelity to things they don’t want to do, because of their own personal reasons, for you. Let me change that to, “There’s the power of human ability to interpret any text to say _anything_, given enough desire to cheat.” In the case of divorce, probably there’s something to be said for allowing it. Forcing people to be miserable for 40+ years because they made one bad choice (or their family made a bad one for them) seems unreasonable. Though, by the same standard, having “marriage” just be “more official dating” is probably something that isn’t ideal either. Corruption in politics, I don’t see any up-side by violating the text. The reason for wanting to violate it is that people think that politics are fun and meaningless, not something that affects the lives and deaths of real human beings, which is largely because the Federal government’s primary focus is _international_. The things that actually affect people - school, public transportation, etc. - are all local government pretty much settled. No one wants big changes there, so no big changes are made there - it’s all just time wasting and being silly, with things that really don’t matter all that much. But, so, the politics ends up existing in the public consciousness in the same territory as celebrity gossip and team sports. It’s something to lay wagers on, buy trinkets to wave around, and chant slogans for. But the reality is that people are saved by the government, killed by the government, etc. it’s just a small number overall and, with the Federal government, largely overseas. Your average Ukrainian or Mexican is more greatly impacted by the American President than the average American, they’re the ones who live or die. And corruption impacts that. Having Ukrainians die because 40% of the American population likes to see the people on CNN get angry is horrible. If the President held back aid from the country for months, simply because he likes to be able to strut around and call himself “President of the United States” and not for any reason that’s actually part of his job, then he was just straight up murdering people. Not actively - it’s just through blissful ignorance and blindness to his own impact on the world - but it’s still a completely unnecessary set of deaths that are rooted in nothing greater than that people were being stupid, ignoring the Constitution, and playing games with a metaphorical loaded gun because “I’m sure there’s no one over on the other side of that shrubbery”. Bill Clinton may well have bombed people just because he was trying to distract the media. Trump may well have bombed the Iraqi airport because some unredacted Ukraine emails leaked. And maybe they would have done things of that nature anyways, but it was probably less well-considered and more hastily done than it otherwise would have been. More innocents may have died than necessary because it was initiated in a panic rather than as part of a considered and deliberate measure. It is not a joke to have a joke President, nor to have that person undertaking his duties without serious, deliberate, and justifiable intent. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/252 "2020-01-04T22:26:12Z")
This rant was actually inspired by some unrelated items I’m currently reading, but since it’s easily directed at Jim Pebblebrain and EasyPill, this seems like an appropriate place to drop it. I’m sick of all your fucking conservative pearl clutching offense at how UNFAIR the FBI was to poor L’il Donald Trump. Yes, I’ll concede it. The FBI engaged in some overreach in not only the warrants against Carter Page, but in the entire Russia investigation. They relied on admittedly unverified intelligence from biased sources. They used heavy-handed methods in order to get the players to turn on one another. But so fucking what !!! It’s the fucking Federal Bureau of Investigation. That’s the way they fucking operate! They do that shit to EVERYONE that crosses their radar. And people are constantly shoving their enemies under that same radar. The FBI launches investigations of companies all the time based on dubious “reports” commissioned by people trying to short their stock or takeover or take down their company. And sometimes they find real wrongdoing that way, and sometimes they don’t. Probably the only thing that keeps most businesses from being full on corrupt is the policing by adverse interests, and the tendency for the FBI to investigate a ham sandwich. And they bust down doors and haul white collar criminals out of their beds at 5:30 AM to arrest them all the time, it wasn’t just something mean they decided to do to Paul Manafort and Roger Stone to humiliate them. They arrested Felicity Huffman and Lori Loughlin in exactly the same way. And Martha Stewart did something like 5 years in prison for lying to the FBI. They never found any underlying crime, she just lied about talking to someone. You can stick your faux right wing outrage about Trump cronies going to jail up your ass with a rubber glove, the same rubber glove that the Federal Bureau of Intrusion uses on everyone. If anything, Trump and Friends got it with a kid glove greased with extra Vaseline. Really, so quit it with poking through every document in the case looking for overreach. It’s meaningless because I could probably pore through any random major case file of the FBI’s and find dozens, if not hundreds, cases of overreach and exaggeration and probably outright lying. Because that’s what they do. And no small part of it involves taking wrongdoers for a ride, even if they can’t drum up an actual charge that will stick. Again, THEY DO THIS TO EVERYONE. I’ve got to admit to some significant schadenfreude when I see the FBI flexing their muscles against people that I think deserve it - it’s makes me feel that they got something right, at least. But the FBI is a heavy handed, inflexible and highly conservative organization, despite the laughable right wing attempt to paint them as the new bastions of liberalism. The enemy of my enemy is not my friend. I’m still an old school liberal, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/253 "2020-01-04T22:33:58Z")
Missed edit window And quit acting like the FISA court ever saw an application it didn’t like. They probably could’ve gotten a warrant for on the basis of his hat alone. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/254 "2020-01-04T22:54:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Those should be two separate sentences. > > More what - more rage? I don’t think that’s possible. More intelligence? Same answer. > > Regards, > > Shodan So you’re saying that **margin** has hit the upper threshold for all of human intelligence? That she couldn’t possibly be any smarter? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/255 "2020-01-04T23:02:31Z")
I am saying she is doing the best she can, unfortunately. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/256 "2020-01-04T23:14:39Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Missed edit window > > And quit acting like the FISA court ever saw an application it didn’t like. They probably could’ve gotten a warrant for on the basis of his hat alone. There is some debate over what was viewed as being sufficient probable cause in the Horowitz report. One of them viewed Page’s own admission of knowing that he was working for Russian foreign intelligence agents (along with the report by the Australian ambassador) as sufficient for filing the initial FISA request, but most viewed that as insufficient. Steele put it over and, it should be clear, the information known to the FBI about Steele at that time seems to support the idea that they were justified in taking it seriously (not at face value, just seriously). Where the FBI fell short was in the re-ups. They failed to keep the court apprised of updates on the historical information that had been used to justify the FISA request (specifically, that Steele’s reporting was less well-sourced than they had been lead to understand). There is also an accusation that they should have stopped claiming that Page was working for Russia because, while he was working for Trump, there was no indication that he was continuing to perform tasks for Russian intelligence agencies. Perhaps Horowitz says that somewhere in the document; if there’s a quote, I would lean towards accepting his conclusion, but we can’t see the large majority of things that the wiretaps and interviews with Page revealed. While it may be true that the non-redacted materials fail to have supported the case, making an assumption that it doesn’t makes no more sense than that it does. 1. Everyone in the FISA report is characterized as being unmotivated to expend more than minimal effort on things. They’re slammed with thousands of documents. Writing stuff up is a PITA, getting so-and-so to do things is a hassle, and so on. That is to say, _it’s a normal workplace_. So, do we have any reason to believe that the FISC is somehow better than that and fully staffed with superhumans who don’t skim, make assumptions, try to bypass meaningless red tape, etc.? I would suggest that your average judge would not look at the historical information in any of the FISA renewal requests. If a footnote had been updated to say that Steele’s reporting was looking less wonderful, would the judge have seen it? I suspect that he’s a human, would skip straight to the section with the headline, “What we’ve overheard on the wiretap since last reported”, and entirely base his determination on whether to proceed ahead or not on what was contained there. And…he did so three times. 2. “A failure to establish” and “proven innocent” are very different things. The latter is rare. 3. The redactions do not give a reason for that material being redacted. It could be for personal privacy of Page and nothing more. Horowitz seems to have seen everything that there was in the FISA re-ups. If he said that they only contain nonsense, then he’s probably correct. I didn’t note such a quote, but I didn’t watch his testimony and I didn’t read the executive summary. In the nitty-gritty sections of his report, at least, he makes no mention of the quality of the wiretap results. But they seem lengthy for “Page bought pizza.” EasyPhil, at least, provided no cite that Horowitz characterized the wiretap results as being a big nothing. Plausibly, he was simply a bad researcher and debater. But, at any rate, the report slams the FBI for procedural flaws that exist to ensure that there is reasonable probable cause. That was flaunted. But I would probably argue that you could remove the “previous findings” section from the FISA re-ups and solve the problem just as easily with no effect. You’re not going to make people read every email, every attachment, and anything beyond the first sentence of everything they encounter in their daily work. That’s impracticable. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2020, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/257 "2020-01-04T23:25:25Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > He has an excuse…that he was concerned about corruption. Where are you finding “excuse” in the constitution? ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/258 "2020-01-05T00:22:14Z")
I’m just saying that in the years 1979-2012, the FISA court ultimately\* granted 33,942 warrants and denied 12. The bar for getting a warrant approved just isn’t very high. I suspect the court would’ve approved it on the basis of his pro-Russia public statements alone. I’m tired of the right wing gaslighting the American public about how law enforcement works. \*Some warrants were approved with modifications. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/259 "2020-01-05T00:28:48Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I’m just saying that in the years 1979-2012, the FISA court ultimately\* granted 33,942 warrants and denied 12. The bar for getting a warrant approved just isn’t very high. I suspect the court would’ve approved it on the basis of his pro-Russia public statements alone. I’m tired of the right wing gaslighting the American public about how law enforcement works. > > \*Some warrants were approved with modifications. What’s the rate in the non-secret courts? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/260 "2020-01-05T00:54:39Z")
> [@TheMysteryWriter](#): > > According to my dad’s beliefs the rapture happens to take all the xtians away, then the 7 year tribulation period happens to punish Israel and to eventually make them all accept Jesus. Then after that is the millennium where Jesus sits on the throne in Jerusalem and the entire world is now under Jewish law. > > I don’t know if folks like my dad think anyone in the Republican Party is a Nazi. Of course they might all be Nazis themselves, which is why they wouldn’t recognize it. Not sure. But I do know my dad is okay with everything that’s happening. Yeah, but what your dad forgets is that there is an Antichrist which kicks all this shit off, and the Christians who eventually get into heaven are _not_ the followers of the Antichrist and his false prophets. Those guys just die and go to Hell during the Tribulations. [http://dangreenup.com/end-times-timeline/](http://dangreenup.com/end-times-timeline/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=14)