# Hello Universe? Can we get some better Trump defenders on this board? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663 "2019-12-31T13:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/461 "2020-01-12T17:02:22Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Thanks for making my point so eloquently. Sarcasm plus facts = poor oppressed Trumpie. Some dipshit writes a “both sides” post whitewashing how evil Trump is, and you’re offended at _my_ tone. If that doesn’t sum up Trumpies-----well, you’d need to add monumental false accusations against Hillary Clinton----I don’t know what does. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/462 "2020-01-12T17:30:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > There is some ridiculous back and forth in this thread. It was specifically created to complain about crappy Trump supporters, not to be a debate about impeachment or why Trump supporters can’t get get away with their lying and disingenuous arguments. > > If you want to be treated well, don’t hang out in the Pit. This thread proves nothing about how an honest debater who happens to be conservative would be treated in Great Debates, Politics & Elections, or GQ. **Max S.** has had several threads where he honestly debates from a conservative and even somewhat pro-Trump position (not that he’s a Trump supporter, from what I can tell) and other posters engaged with him honestly, without rancor. > > Lying, stupid, and disingenuous posters will receive harsher treatment, especially when they don’t respond honestly to questions and opponents points. > > **Damuri** and **cmosdes** , if you think things said in this Pit rant proves any points about how honest conservatives or moderates or whatever are treated elsewhere on this board, well, you’re just wrong. We can disagree and move on. I see things differently. If nothing else, I hope some reading this will at least pause for a moment when they post or respond to others and ask themselves if the vitriol is worth the price. As you noted, there is no one left to offer any opposing positions anymore and my contention is because of responses like those in post 120. Maybe I’m way off. Maybe your contention that everyone who is supporting Trump realizes they are completely devoid of all logic and reason and have no real defense and they are unwilling to share because they already know they are wrong is the right one. From the OP: > [@](#): > > Universe, c’mon, can’t you do any better? Someone must have some plausible defense out there! I’m trying not to fall into a news bubble, but I don’t know where to turn. And then you turn around and say the post by margin is acceptable and warranted and anyone who posts any pro-Trump responses deserves it? Which part of Velocity’s post was lying or disingenuous? We can debate if it was stupid, but if that is truly the only measuring stick then _any_ contrarian post will be deemed as such and your criteria for determining which posts deserve derision is meaningless. Sure, you really are trying to not fall into the news bubble. By posting in the pit asking for reasoned opposing views and then supporting the jackals that attack anyone that proffers an opposing view. You’ll forgive me if I don’t see your efforts as really all that genuine. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/463 "2020-01-12T18:23:08Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > If you want to be treated well, don’t hang out in the Pit. This thread proves nothing about how an honest debater who happens to be conservative would be treated in Great Debates, Politics & Elections, or GQ. I agree. To show what happens in those forums, you could post something that supports Trump in some way, however small. Or suggests that one of the current accusations against him might be wrong in some way, or even an alternative explanation that could make Trump look just a tiny bit less bad, and then wait for the responses to come in. If the vast majority are respectful and address whatever point you try to make directly, that is a good sign. If however, say 9 out of 10 completely ignore your point, and instead make you out to be some kind of commie, raving lunatic, that there is no way in hell what you say could ever have even the tiniest bit of merit, then that would not speak well of those forums. I suggest anyone who wants to get a better idea of what would happen, then think of something that you truly believe fits what I say in my first sentences here, post it there, and see. I’ve been here since 2001. I cannot say that things have gotten worse as far as trying to have an honest debate in this respect over that time, because up until recently I typically would post in support of the liberal position, as I am a liberal. However, I have done the above recently, and let’s just say _my experience_ suggests there is vast room for improvement for trying to get that honest debate. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/464 "2020-01-12T18:31:50Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > You made an unfounded accusation against me. Back it up, as I’ve now asked twice, or admit you were wrong. If you choose neither, I will not be responding to you anymore. You represent the EXACT example of the types of things I’ve been explaining to Airbeck. I’ve never supported Trump in any way, yet you seem to have the perception I have. ?. I don’t think I personalized anything about you. I was talking about the board posts overall. And you avoided my main point. You slipped in the weasel words “Intelligent etc…” and you won’t answer my question about it. A very simple question too. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/465 "2020-01-12T18:46:05Z")
You people are ten pounds of shit in a 5 pouind bag. “You can’t even ask a question” My guess: These complaints have to do wtih weasel words and manipulations attached to the question. Who has not asked at one time or another, a factual question here? I have. I got a respopnse. wtf. It’s not the fucking red wedding man. If your question is a weasel question that insults the intelligence of the board what do you think will happen? You get “asked” about it. The response to that is to give a good vigorous response not to bitch that you got taken for something youre not and so youre upset and want an apology. You don’t need an apology from an anonymous person. Think about it. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/466 "2020-01-12T19:06:03Z")
Also holding the whole thread hostage over an over the top post by one poster seems oddly…distracting. I mean ignoring it might be even more effective than spending a weekend on it. Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/467 "2020-01-12T19:13:58Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > ?. I don’t think I personalized anything about you. I was talking about the board posts overall. > > And you avoided my main point. You slipped in the weasel words “Intelligent etc…” and you won’t answer my question about it. A very simple question too. You quoted me and talked about how being blinky in defending trump. > [@](#): > > But even further: when you play firefly and keep blinking on and off about defending the guy This was directed specifically in response to a post by me. This is, at best, a backhanded accusation of me supporting Trump. I do not. Admit you were wrong or move along. I asked a simple question first. You answer mine, I’ll answer yours. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/468 "2020-01-12T19:20:49Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > You people are ten pounds of shit in a 5 pouind bag. > > “You can’t even ask a question” > > My guess: These complaints have to do wtih weasel words and manipulations attached to the question. > > Who has not asked at one time or another, a factual question here? I have. I got a respopnse. wtf. It’s not the fucking red wedding man. If your question is a weasel question that insults the intelligence of the board what do you think will happen? You get “asked” about it. The response to that is to give a good vigorous response not to bitch that you got taken for something youre not and so youre upset and want an apology. > > You don’t need an apology from an anonymous person. Think about it. Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suite, is it? I’ve asked for a cite on a previous accusation, which you failed to provide, so I have little hope you’ll actually provide this one. When did I ask for an apology? I asked for you to admit you are wrong. Talk about 10 lbs of shit. Try learning to read. No wonder you think some words are weasely. You don’t get how words are used so anything that isn’t in alignment with how you view the world must be weasely. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/469 "2020-01-12T19:36:40Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > You quoted me and talked about how being blinky in defending trump. > > This was directed specifically in response to a post by me. This is, at best, a backhanded accusation of me supporting Trump. I do not. Admit you were wrong or move along. I asked a simple question first. You answer mine, I’ll answer yours. The first sentence? Could you tidy it up maybe? Dude. I was addressing the board. I don’t know you from Adam. I’m not engaged with you. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/470 "2020-01-12T19:43:32Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Reading comprehension isn’t your strong suite, is it? I’ve asked for a cite on a previous accusation, which you failed to provide, so I have little hope you’ll actually provide this one. > > When did I ask for an apology? I asked for you to admit you are wrong. Talk about 10 lbs of shit. Try learning to read. No wonder you think some words are weasely. You don’t get how words are used so anything that isn’t in alignment with how you view the world must be weasely. Apology/Take it back: whats the difference? You think I accused you of something, when I don’t know who you are. The opinion some hold that the trump defenses on display here are bad or inadequate is perfectly in keeping with the OP and the discussion, and is legitimate commentary. If you see that and self identify as that, and want to tell us about it how is that someone else’s fault? ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/471 "2020-01-12T21:01:46Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Apology/Take it back: whats the difference? You think I accused you of something, when I don’t know who you are. > > The opinion some hold that the trump defenses on display here are bad or inadequate is perfectly in keeping with the OP and the discussion, and is legitimate commentary. If you see that and self identify as that, and want to tell us about it how is that someone else’s fault? Holy fuck you are dense. You have, yet again, misrepresented what is being said. This is now the THIRD time. It is no wonder you think everyone else is weasely. I see no point in continuing any discourse with you. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/472 "2020-01-12T21:06:39Z")
> [@cmosdes](#): > > Holy fuck you are dense. You have, yet again, misrepresented what is being said. This is now the THIRD time. > > It is no wonder you think everyone else is weasely. I see no point in continuing any discourse with you. The hive isn’t what it is accidentally. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/473 "2020-01-12T22:15:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > The hive isn’t what it is accidentally. Another lazy, content-free “hive” post from **octopus**. Everybody drink! ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/474 "2020-01-12T22:37:44Z")
I’m trying to follow the logic. Why is it material whether you are a troinp voter or not, to making a good argument? So you make your point. Good. If people think you are in the bag then it seems like maybe it’s the argument you are using. But why is it a matter of honor not to be considered a trunp voter, while you defend him? I don’t attribute specific views to people here, because there are a few things that could be going on: non trumpers making arguendos, trumpoers, trolls, anarchists, tighty rightys, people trying to shift overton type lines here, distractors…who cares. It’s your posts and not your affiliation people are addressing. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/475 "2020-01-12T23:39:18Z")
Maybe just go make your own damn board! Not that hard to do, just set yourselves up as moderators and disallow any hive-mind stuff. Be a stampede of people, eager to escape Gulag Cecil. ---
**Author:** ![cmosdes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@cmosdes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmosdes)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/476 "2020-01-13T00:06:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Maybe just go make your own damn board! Not that hard to do, just set yourselves up as moderators and disallow any hive-mind stuff. Be a stampede of people, eager to escape Gulag Cecil. I really enjoy reading your posts, elucidator. I’ve gotten many good laughs from your wit and I’m amazed at how quickly you can make your point with that wit. I mean that sincerely. In this instance, if someone critiques a opinion you disagree with, you are silent. If someone critiques the critique, all of a sudden you are telling people to leave. Is it okay to be critical around here of opinions you agree or should anyone who disagrees with any aspect of other posts, including in the pit, I might add, take their hat and leave? ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/477 "2020-01-13T00:24:56Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > …Universe, c’mon, can’t you do any better? Someone must have some plausible defense out there! I’m trying not to fall into a news bubble, but I don’t know where to turn. It is difficult when many are so disposed to be against Trump for everything all the time. I can post the entirety of what the President said about the Charlottesville protestors, and most will ignore it and a few will read it and \*still \*say Trump called Nazis ‘fine people’. (And one kind of said, maybe, but he still sucks.) ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/478 "2020-01-13T00:33:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Another lazy, content-free “hive” post from **octopus**. Everybody drink! At least it’s not Damur Ajashi. He posts eight replies at one go. That’s Dylan Thomas-alcoholic-insult-to-the-brain-type-shit. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/479 "2020-01-13T00:41:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Maybe just go make your own damn board! Not that hard to do, just set yourselves up as moderators and disallow any hive-mind stuff. Be a stampede of people, eager to escape Gulag Cecil. Or better yet, why don’t we just go do what the Trump voters are doing as we speak? Do you know why you’re not going to get better Trump defenders on this board? It’s because the better Trump voters have better things to do with their time than interact with a bunch of whiny hosers who are _still bitching about the 2016 election and electoral college more than three years after Trump won!!_ He won, kids. Time to wake up and smell the Clintons. You’re not going to get better Trump defenders on this board, because even as we’re typing this happy horseshit, any Trump voter worth a damn is preparing for the 2020 election. They are stuffing envelopes, going door to door, and the younger, smarter Trump voters are putting up websites for campaign funds . . . you know, kind of like what YOU’D be doing, if you had _half_ the discipline, common sense, and drive of the people you call enemies. If they’re assholes, then they’re assholes who are smarter than you, more hardworking than you, cannier than you, and . . . well, come on, let’s face it: Who are the assholes really? And what are _we_ doing? Well, in addition to fantasizing about how much better the country would be without an electoral college (the very NERVE of that constitution. I mean, if the constitution were so great, why does it have all those amendments, huh?), we’re racking up posts on a dying message board, refighting the 2016 election again and again and again, like a bunch of Civil War reenactors with Asperger’s Syndrome, and while we’re engaged in such august activities, our own side is deciding who’s going to run against the incumbent president of a constitutional republic with a strong economy. So far, we have it narrowed down to three people: the old, establishment white guy who says and does dumb things, the old establishment white woman who says and does dumb things, and some crazy old dude who just had a heart attack in the middle of campaigning. Well . . . November sounds like a real nailbiter to _me_. :dubious: But hey, like I said before, at least you’re winning here, right? Congratulations, kids, jolly well fought! Here, have an Internet! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2020, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/480 "2020-01-13T01:01:15Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > It is difficult when many are so disposed to be against Trump for everything all the time. I can post the entirety of what the President said about the Charlottesville protestors, and most will ignore it and a few will read it and \*still \*say Trump called Nazis ‘fine people’. > > (And one kind of said, maybe, but he still sucks.) However, that “fine people” line was directed towards the proto fascists of the past and present: the white southerners that continued to support slavery or the “heroes” that supported that. And that slaves were inferior or German bigots that then later supported “fine” segregationist laws like the ones from Jim Crow. > **[A post-Charlottesville reading list to help explain American white supremacy](https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/15/16145380/post-charlottesville-reading-list-stamped-from-beginning-hitlers-american-model)** > > 5 books that show how deeply white supremacy is embedded in America, and where it can lead. > [@](#): > > **Hitler’s American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law, James Q. Whitman** > > When the Nazis crafted the Nuremberg Laws, they looked around for inspiration. And across the Atlantic, they found it in an entire system of race-based caste laws and practices: America’s Jim Crow segregation, citizenship laws, and anti-miscegenation laws; the doctrine of Manifest Destiny that masked a genocide; the wholehearted embrace of eugenics. Some of America’s practices, the Nazis decided, were too harsh, but others created a perfect precedent for their own plans. This book demonstrates the fundamental link between the violent atrocities of Nazi Germany and the American legacy of white supremacy. Incidentally: others still do a good argument that even though Trump did not precisely call the Nazis “fine people” his fig leafs are not quite up to snuff. > **[Trump’s new defense of his Charlottesville comments is incredibly false](https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/18517980/trump-unite-the-right-racism-defense-charlottesville)** > > The 2017 "Unite the Right" rally was organized by and intended for white supremacists and white nationalists. > [@](#): > > Trump isn’t alone in attempting to recast his “both sides” Charlottesville remarks; his supporters are, too. Within the past few months, Dilbert creator Scott Adams, Morton Klein, head of Zionists of America, and writers for Breitbart and the Federalist have done the same, as the Daily Beast’s Will Sommer reported a few weeks ago. > > These writers argue that Trump’s “very fine people on both sides” comments were meant to refer to the protesters in attendance who were attempting to stop the removal of a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee from a public square in Charlottesville, not the neo-Nazis and white nationalists who made up the bulk of the event’s attendees. > > As RealClearPolitics’ Steve Cortes argued, “Despite the clear evidence of Trump’s statements regarding Charlottesville, major media figures insist on spreading the calumny that Trump called neo-Nazis ‘fine people.’” > > But here’s the thing: He did. > > Unite the Right was explicitly organized and branded as a far-right, racist, and white supremacist event by far-right racist white supremacists. This was clear for months before the march actually occurred. So by casting the rally instead as a sort of spontaneous outpouring from Confederate statue enthusiasts, Trump is rewriting history. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=25)