# Hello Universe? Can we get some better Trump defenders on this board? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 31, 2019, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663 "2019-12-31T13:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/521 "2020-01-14T22:43:48Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, I guess you don’t REALLY care about the election then, do you? If you did, you’d actually be doing something, rather than just whining on the Internet, like someone mentioned above. > > I, myself, don’t care, so I’m not going out of my Blue State and campaigning in bum-fuck Kansas or wherever. The good news is you’ll probably get 4 more years of good Internet whining though, so you got that to look forward to! If you REALLY didn’t care about the election, you’d send me $200. That’s the minimum sufficient demonstration that you have to do to be considered not caring. Since we’re now allowed to declare what people have to do to qualify as caring or not, and all. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/522 "2020-01-14T23:13:57Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I’ll grant you this… if Trump wins in 2020, it will not be due to **not enough people with notebooks, knocking on doors**. It will be down to **voter apathy**. It’s entirely possible that American society is much worse than we think. (bolding mine) And that’s the actual reason we lost in 2016 and will most likely lose in November. Not because of gerrymandering. Not because of the Russians. Not because of the electoral college, and sure as _hell_ not because of society. Sigh . . . the _idiocies_ society gets blamed for! **QuickSilver** , the reason we’ve been losing is because too many people in this country are under the mistaken belief that the phrases I’ve bolded in that quote represent two different things. I’ll repeat. 80,000 votes. Hillary Clinton might have taken responsibility for it, but for damned sure, we _all_ screwed the pooch! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/523 "2020-01-14T23:17:49Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > (bolding mine) > > And that’s the actual reason we lost in 2016 and will most likely lose in November. Not because of gerrymandering. Not because of the Russians. Not because of the electoral college, and sure as _hell_ not because of society. Sigh . . . the _idiocies_ society gets blamed for! > > **QuickSilver** , the reason we’ve been losing is because too many people in this country are under the mistaken belief that the phrases I’ve bolded in that quote represent two different things. > > I’ll repeat. 80,000 votes. Hillary Clinton might have taken responsibility for it, but for damned sure, we _all_ screwed the pooch! What are you doing to encourage people to vote? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/524 "2020-01-14T23:21:58Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > (bolding mine) > > And that’s the actual reason we lost in 2016 and will most likely lose in November. Not because of gerrymandering. Not because of the Russians. Not because of the electoral college, and sure as _hell_ not because of society. Sigh . . . the _idiocies_ society gets blamed for! This is pretty much like saying that when a racecar beats a unicycle in a race, it’s not because the car is faster, it’s because the racecar driver pushed down the gas petal. _Technically_ correct, but dismissing the other factors paints an inaccurate picture. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/525 "2020-01-14T23:31:07Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > This is pretty much like saying that when a racecar beats a unicycle in a race, it’s not because the car is faster, it’s because the racecar driver pushed down the gas petal. _Technically_ correct, but dismissing the other factors paints an inaccurate picture. And if Clinton were really THAT much weaker than Trump, you’d have a point, but she lost, because Trump voters were more driven, disciplined, and focused than we were. Trump voters got those votes _out_, and as a result, the weaker, dumber candidate won the election. You want to know how we should be behaving? Study the rightwingers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/526 "2020-01-14T23:39:28Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > And if Clinton were really THAT much weaker than Trump, you’d have a point, but she lost, because Trump voters were more driven, disciplined, and focused than we were. Trump voters got those votes _out_, and as a result, the weaker, dumber candidate won the election. You want to know how we should be behaving? Study the rightwingers. Is there a way to do this without throwing all our principles in the toilet? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/527 "2020-01-14T23:50:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Is there such a thing as deformance art? Can’t… resist… temptation… There’s at least one artist out there who describes herself as a “‘Deformance’ artist who expresses her personal experience of living with a birth defect through her art.” (her right hand is disfigured) [http://deformanceart.com/](http://deformanceart.com/) I have actually seen her art once, and I recognize her, but that is totally coincidental - I just searched for “deformance art”. ETA: Probably not what you meant. But this thread could use some uplifting thoughts. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/528 "2020-01-14T23:51:31Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a way to do this without throwing all our principles in the toilet? As I mentioned above, of course there is. We as a people have only been doing it for the past 250 years! We get out the vote, we go door to door, we man the phone lines, man the picket lines, show up for the town halls and election events, and we energize! Ask a Freedom Rider if he gave up _his_ principles to get what he wanted. Of course, it’s up to you. You probably have a bunch of easier, more fun stuff to do like post here. Just try to keep in mind that if we take **begbert2’s** analogy to the next step and imagine the unicycle rider beating the race care driver in the contest, there may or may not be extenuating circumstances that don’t relate to the race car driver being kind of an idiot, but that won’t change the fact that no one outside of the race car driver’s circle of fans is going to feel very sorry for him. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/529 "2020-01-14T23:59:30Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > And if Clinton were really THAT much weaker than Trump, you’d have a point, but she lost, because Trump voters were more driven, disciplined, and focused than we were. Trump voters got those votes _out_, and as a result, the weaker, dumber candidate won the election. You want to know how we should be behaving? Study the rightwingers. So, that a group can get a lot by following [untruth](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/29/donald-trump-false-claims-lies-germany-father-abortion-popular-vote-), [injustice](https://twnews.us/us-news/the-savage-injustice-of-trump-s-military-pardons) and the [un-American](https://www.nationalmemo.com/new-poll-majority-says-trumps-racist-attack-un-american/?cn-reloaded=1)way? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/530 "2020-01-15T00:14:04Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > And if Clinton were really THAT much weaker than Trump, you’d have a point, but she lost, because Trump voters were more driven, disciplined, and focused than we were. Trump voters got those votes _out_, and as a result, the weaker, dumber candidate won the election. You want to know how we should be behaving? Study the rightwingers. You can’t really dismiss the influence of the Russians in one breath and then focus on the lukewarm opinions about Clinton in the next - that apathy was at least partially the product of a _massive_ targeted misinformation campaign - the blue prong of the same misinformation campaign that prodded the conservatives into a racist, bigoted furor. We actually have no way to accurately measure the extent of the effects of the various conservative and foreign efforts to put their thumb on the scale in favor of the Republicans. We do know that these efforts are occurring, though, and that american elections are most definitely slanted in the republicans’ favor, to a greater degree in some places than others. This is objective fact. Does this mean that liberals can’t win? Of course not; it more serves to barely compensate for how minimized and insignificant the conservative side is becoming. And before you ask, I’m going to do my best to get one person to vote anti-republican: me. That’s one vote you wouldn’t otherwise get, so be thankful. And now be a little bit less thankful because my state is red as the blood of innocents and blue votes don’t matter here anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/531 "2020-01-15T00:22:08Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > You can’t really dismiss the influence of the Russians in one breath and then focus on the lukewarm opinions about Clinton in the next - that apathy was at least partially the product of a _massive_ targeted misinformation campaign - the blue prong of the same misinformation campaign that prodded the conservatives into a racist, bigoted furor. And you know, that unicycle rider was actually world-class. He swept the Lichtenstein Unicycle Championships five years running, and it wasn’t really the race car driver’s fault. His pit crew was pretty awful, and who cares if he was responsible for hiring and training them? That race course was absolute _shit_ . . . for race cars, I mean, not for unicycles. Also, that race was on a Saturday, and that just _isn’t_ fair, because anyone who knows anything about this race car driver knows that he’s always done better on Sundays, and anyway . . . hey, where’s everyone going? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/532 "2020-01-15T00:23:14Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > And you know, that unicycle rider was actually world-class. He swept the Lichtenstein Unicycle Championships five years running, and it wasn’t really the race car driver’s fault. His pit crew was pretty awful, and who cares if he was responsible for hiring and training them? That race course was absolute _shit_ . . . for race cars, I mean, not for unicycles. Also, that race was on a Saturday, and that just _isn’t_ fair, because anyone who knows anything about this race car driver knows that he’s always done better on Sundays, and anyway . . . hey, where’s everyone going? Okay, you’ve lost me. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/533 "2020-01-15T00:23:23Z")
The election of termoup was a fluke. The right wing weren’t organized around it. It happened that all the varieties of far right and hate knew that he was their man, when the left was trying to come up with theories, and they were not alone in not thinking he could win. Everyone thought that. BUt the normal right didn’t know what to make of him. You have to make it so the haters can’t agree one on person. That’s dangerous now. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/534 "2020-01-15T00:28:40Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > The election of termoup was a fluke. The right wing weren’t organized around it. It happened that all the varieties of far right and hate knew that he was their man, when the left was trying to come up with theories, and they were not alone in not thinking he could win. Everyone thought that. BUt the normal right didn’t know what to make of him. > > You have to make it so the haters can’t agree one on person. That’s dangerous now. Actually you just have to avoid the haters all agreeing while the decent people _don’t_. Those are the circumstances that led to Trump stumbling into the white house. It’s definitely the case that among the many, many factors that just barely nudged Trump across the finish line, a relevant factor was liberal infighting. (Gleefully promoted by Russian propaganda.) If the democratic side somehow gets its collective ass together this time, Trump and co won’t have a chance (barring even more dubiously legal shenanigans than last time). ---
**Author:** ![Linty\_Fresh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Linty\_Fresh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linty_Fresh)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/535 "2020-01-15T00:33:32Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Okay, you’ve lost me. If we go by your analogy, the unicyclist beat the race car driver in 2016. It wasn’t supposed to happen. We’re all still trying to figure out why it happened. Maybe there was a reason why the driver lost to the cyclist that doesn’t involve the driver being a total dipshit. Somehow, I doubt it. And when people try to make excuses for the driver, it just seems–Well, how does it seem to you? Kind of contrived, right? Kind of petty? Maybe the cyclist isn’t a great guy. Maybe he beats puppies and thinks that Hank Williams Junior is a better singer than his dad. That doesn’t make the race car driver any smarter, and it doesn’t make excuses on his behalf ring any truer. Stop making excuses. They won. We lost. This was all three years ago. Move on. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/536 "2020-01-15T00:52:49Z")
> [@Linty\_Fresh](#): > > If we go by your analogy, the unicyclist beat the race car driver in 2016. It wasn’t supposed to happen. We’re all still trying to figure out why it happened. Maybe there was a reason why the driver lost to the cyclist that doesn’t involve the driver being a total dipshit. Somehow, I doubt it. > > And when people try to make excuses for the driver, it just seems–Well, how does it seem to you? Kind of contrived, right? Kind of petty? Maybe the cyclist isn’t a great guy. Maybe he beats puppies and thinks that Hank Williams Junior is a better singer than his dad. That doesn’t make the race car driver any smarter, and it doesn’t make excuses on his behalf ring any truer. Stop making excuses. They won. We lost. This was all three years ago. Move on. You misunderstand my analogy. I strongly believe that there are a number of external factors that slant victory in favor of the republicans - propaganda, jerrymandering, the electoral college layout, hell, vote tampering for all I know. There was the Sanders-based division among the democrats and the racism-based unification of the republicans as well. The republicans have a _clear_ advantage, in my eyes. They had the race car. And, thanks to the unify force of propagada and racism they gave it gas - gas enough to beat the unicycle. But I’ll concede that my analogy might have been confusing, so let’s swap it for a simpler one: in the race being run, republicans start closer to the finish line. Thanks to the electoral college republican votes are worth more on average than democrat votes are; most efforts to impede and disenfranchise votes come down harder on democrat votes. Republicans simply don’t have as far to run as democrats do. So democrats just have to run harder to make up the difference. Too bad I’m in a deep red state and can’t help, but I’ll be sort of quietly rooting for you between burritos and such. Good luck! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/537 "2020-01-15T00:54:27Z")
I agree with “they won, we lost, move on to the next one.” But pointing out foreign election interference, gerrymandering and voter suppression are hardly excuses- they range from shenanigans to immorality to arguably casus belli. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/538 "2020-01-15T01:56:02Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Actually you just have to avoid the haters all agreeing while the decent people _don’t_. Those are the circumstances that led to Trump stumbling into the white house. > > It’s definitely the case that among the many, many factors that just barely nudged Trump across the finish line, a relevant factor was liberal infighting. (Gleefully promoted by Russian propaganda.) If the democratic side somehow gets its collective ass together this time, Trump and co won’t have a chance (barring even more dubiously legal shenanigans than last time). I just heard a clip of Obama debating Hillary. The point was that it was much more vicious then, than Sanders vs Warren now. But we are so scared and on the edge of oblivion. It is the truth that any crack in the dem face is ignited exploited and amplified by the right, but more importantly the medias catering to the “crisis” that makes them their ad dollars, but that might be completely fucked as far as truth goes, and leading to dictatorship. The media keeps feeding us stuff we don’t want and isn’t true, and we just sit there and watch until it becomes true. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/539 "2020-01-15T03:53:29Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > If you want to view any who defend those monuments and such as “very sick”, that’s your prerogative. Keep in mind, though, that some people are descended from those who they like to think fought well in a bad cause, and the South was squashed worse that post- Versailles Germany (and more that almost all real Nazis). Racists are found all over, but painting those with whom you disagree with that brush diminished the term. Uh, it was clear that what I said was not directed at you or all other misguided guys that do not bother to look carefully what they are supporting, but to the rallying fascist and bigots defending such stupid monuments [that in reality were erected as a poke in the eye of the ones trying to end Jim Crow laws and other racist things.](https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544266880/confederate-statues-were-built-to-further-a-white-supremacist-future). So that point stands. Yours is really yet another attempt at misleading others, in this case an attempt to make me sound as if I’m saying that all the ones that support Agent Orange are racists when that clearly is not what I said. Again, history shows that the Nazis then looked up at Jim Crow laws as a great idea and developed them further. My point is then that it comes full circle when the weaponized bigots of the south that participated on that march did their damnedest effort (aided by Trump) to be on the “fine” side, when in reality they were defenders to the “elders” of the new weaponized bigots, the Nazis and the Neo-Nazis. What remains is the secondary point I made, it is clear that Trump did not call the Nazis “fine people” the “fine” people marching with the Nazis though still supported fake history and bigotry too; however, as **iiandyiiii** and others point out, the context shows that it is debatable that Trump was concerned about differentiating old or new bigots, or feeling sorry about supporting old fashion bigots for the simple reason that what Trump did was to grossly ignore who was organizing that rally. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663/540 "2020-01-15T04:36:46Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > If you want to view any who defend those monuments and such as “very sick”, that’s your prerogative. Keep in mind, though, that some people are descended from those who they like to think fought well in a bad cause, and the South was squashed worse that post- Versailles Germany (and more that almost all real Nazis). Racists are found all over, but painting those with whom you disagree with that brush diminished the term. Sorry, friend, but the simple fact of the matter is that today’s defenders of the confederacy happen to think that their ancestors were fighting in a good cause. They’re conveniently ignoring at best, or glossing over at worst, the issue of slavery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hello-universe-can-we-get-some-better-trump-defenders-on-this-board/845663.md?page=28)