# Hell's Kitchen, and it's viewers. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2010, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096 "2010-10-14T05:45:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/61 "2010-10-14T20:24:15Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Wiki says he’s also a sci-fi writer, and I used to read sci-fi voraciously. But a few months back[I did a thread asking for new authors/titles to get back into the genre](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=562597), and no one mentioned him. I wonder why? Because I wouldn’t think of his stuff as sci-fi. The aforementioned \*Neverwhere \*and \*American Gods \*are more like magical realism. And before you roll your eyes at comic books, I strongly suggest you pick up the first TPB of _Sandman_–it really is an amazing work. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/62 "2010-10-14T20:28:47Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Not\* knowing\* who Neil Gaiman is (as opposed to being a fan) does show a startling amount of cultural illiteracy by a poster who over all has seemed to generally have more than a modicum of intelligence.☹ Sorry dude. > > Yeah, well… I started fading out on pop culture a long time ago, starting with music in the early 80s. There’s not a single broadcast TV series I watch. > > I guess I’ll go look him up. > > Interesting that you relate cultural literacy to intelligence. Well, he’s a rather well known award winning author, not TV. A number of his books have been adpated for film, such as _Stardust_ and\* Coraline\*. And I do relate the two to an extent. For example, I expect any intelligent person to \*know who \*Robert Heinlein is, even if they don’t read SF. Now, sure- to be able to name all his books and discuss film adaptations veers past simple cultural literacy towards geekness. I expect them to \*know who \*Ang Lee is, who Ringo Starr is, and so forth. That’s just part of being well read. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/63 "2010-10-14T20:30:03Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > … And before you roll your eyes at comic books… Too late. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/64 "2010-10-14T20:30:44Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > > Yeah, well… I started fading out on pop culture a long time ago > > Neil Gaiman isn’t what I’d call “pop culture,” at all. He’s best known as an author, mainly of comic books, the one that most people first think of being _Sandman_. He’s also written a few novels, such as \*Neverwhere \*and _American Gods_, as well as children’s books like \*Coraline \*(which was recently turned into a film). I remember _American Gods_. I remember picking it up, thinking, “Oh hey, this might be pretty good.”. And then I got to the vore\* scene. This was in chapter **one** , mind you, without any warning. It wasn’t like “Just so you know this book will be really creepy at times”. It was more like “Oh hey guys howDEARGODWHATAREYOUDOING?”. Why would I want to keep reading that and how on earth could one describe it as “high-brow”? \*An incredibly disturbing sexual fetish where one of the partners is turned on by eating the other one mid-coitus. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/65 "2010-10-14T20:33:12Z")
[QUOTE=Shot From Guns;13025850 Because I wouldn’t think of his stuff as sci-fi. The aforementioned \*Neverwhere \*and \*American Gods \*are more like magical realism. And before you roll your eyes at comic books, I strongly suggest you pick up the first TPB of _Sandman_–it really is an amazing work.[/QUOTE] He’s considered more a (modern) Fantasy writer that true “Science Fiction”. Mind you, I actually prefer his novels to his comics by quite a bit. But if all he did was comics, I’d forgive you, Boyo. However, his many award winning books and two well known films put him into mainstream writer. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/66 "2010-10-14T20:34:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > … > And I do relate the two to an extent. For example, I expect any intelligent person to \*know who \*Robert Heinlein is, even if they don’t read SF. Now, sure- to be able to name all his books and discuss film adaptations veers past simple cultural literacy towards geekness. I expect them to \*know who \*Ang Lee is, who Ringo Starr is, and so forth. That’s just part of being well read. I know who all these folk are, though I wouldn’t put Ang Lee in the same league as Ringo or Heinlein. I don’t even think I’d put Heinlein in the same league with Ringo. I know quite a few very smart people who know nothing at all about sci-fi. Their intellectual curiosity takes them in different directions. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/67 "2010-10-14T20:35:07Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > I remember _American Gods_. I remember picking it up, thinking, “Oh hey, this might be pretty good.”. And then I got to the vore\* scene. This was in chapter **one** , mind you, without any warning. It wasn’t like “Just so you know this book will be really creepy at times”. It was more like “Oh hey guys howDEARGODWHATAREYOUDOING?”. Why would I want to keep reading that and how on earth could one describe it as “high-brow”? > > \*An incredibly disturbing sexual fetish where one of the partners is turned on by eating the other one mid-coitus. I remember reading on another board about a guy who assigned the book at his (private, I think) high school; apparently the first chapter had been read by half the people in the school the first night it was assigned, having been passed hand-to-hand accompanied by commentary such as “holy shit, I can’t believe he wrote that.” ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/68 "2010-10-14T20:36:45Z")
Well, this thread has wandered all over the place. I think the tie-in now is eating. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/69 "2010-10-14T20:38:50Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The aforementioned \*Neverwhere \*and \*American Gods \*are more like magical realism. There not much at all like magical realism; they’re straight-up fantasy, albeit in a modern setting. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/70 "2010-10-14T20:40:47Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I’d also like to know what the hell the OP was doing in a Burger King if his tastes are so high brow, and what the **fuck** he was doing there with \*“prosumer HD camcorders and expensive Manfrotto tripods”. \*. This is what happens when restaurants give out crowns to their customers. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/71 "2010-10-14T20:52:03Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Oh, and I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Burger King. Actually, I would ONLY be caught dead in a Burger King. Oh dear my yes! Everyone knows that if you want class, you go to Wendys. 😛 (God, and I thought I WAS the queen of thread FAIL) ---
**Author:** ![Meyer6](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@Meyer6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meyer6)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/72 "2010-10-14T20:54:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Meyer6](#): > > > > How did you acquire the back story about them living in their car and coming to BK to see her ‘favourite’ show and not buy anything? Did they tell you this, or did you just fill it in yourself?. > > He determined it because she appeared overweight to him, thus she was “trailer trash”.:rolleyes: Amazing how he could tell where she lived by how much she weighed- damn, Sherlock Holmes move over, dude!:dubious: If you live in a car, can you even be trailer trash? Aren’t you…car trash or something? Anyway, I just can’t imagine that they told old Stan about their living situation. I’m pretty sure he just made it up, just like that thread where he decided that someone who worked at Borders was automatically not very smart. And then he wonders why the world is rude to him. Jeez, can’t a guy just jump to insulting conclusions without everyone getting all up in his face about it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/73 "2010-10-14T21:25:02Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Not\* knowing\* who Neil Gaiman is (as opposed to being a fan) does show a startling amount of cultural illiteracy by a poster who over all has seemed to generally have more than a modicum of intelligence.☹ Sorry dude. > > Christ, he’s a _comic book writer_??? ? Yes, and Arthur C. Clarke, Ian Fleming, Vladimir Nabokov, P. G. Wodehouse, and Margaret Atwood all are skin magazine writers. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/74 "2010-10-14T21:26:18Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > I’d also like to know what the hell the OP was doing in a Burger King if his tastes are so high brow, and what the **fuck** he was doing there with \*“prosumer HD camcorders and expensive Manfrotto tripods”. \*. > > This is what happens when restaurants give out crowns to their customers. Too true, but I think the OP doesn’t know that he’s supposed to stop wearing it after he’s done with his Whopper. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/75 "2010-10-14T21:27:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > > > Oh, and I wouldn’t be caught dead in a Burger King. Actually, I would ONLY be caught dead in a Burger King. > > Oh dear my yes! Everyone knows that if you want class, you go to Wendys. 😛 > > (God, and I thought I WAS the queen of thread FAIL) You’re still _the Queen_, dear. 😃 Others are just bucking to sit beside you on the throne. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/76 "2010-10-14T21:38:53Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Too late. Yes, I’d quite imagined. Are you actually going to fight your ignorance and try some, or will you continue to make smug assumptions about the quality of an entire medium with no basis in experience? > [@pedescribe](#): > > And then I got to the vore\* scene. [snip] Why would I want to keep reading that and how on earth could one describe it as “high-brow”? 1.) I wouldn’t say it qualifies as vore anymore than \*Lolita \*qualifies as child porn. The point is not to tittilate the audience, but rather that the world does not work by the rules you always assumed that it must. It’s also helping to lay down the new rules of worship as power. 2.) I, personally, never claimed Gaiman was “high-brow,” simply good fiction. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There not much at all like magical realism; they’re straight-up fantasy, albeit in a modern setting. Urban fantasy, then, if you prefer. Really, though, “magical realism” is just what people call especially well written urban fantasy, when they don’t want to hitch it to the cart of genre fiction. And I wouldn’t say that Gaiman is a genre writer in the same sense as someone like, oh, Mercedes Lackey. Though obviously I wouldn’t put any of his stuff on the same level as something like Rushdie’s _Midnight’s Children_. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/77 "2010-10-14T21:43:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > > > There not much at all like magical realism; they’re straight-up fantasy, albeit in a modern setting. > > Urban fantasy, then, if you prefer. Really, though, “magical realism” is just what people call especially well written urban fantasy, when they don’t want to hitch it to the cart of genre fiction. And I wouldn’t say that Gaiman is a genre writer in the same sense as someone like, oh, Mercedes Lackey. Though obviously I wouldn’t put any of his stuff on the same level as something like Rushdie’s _Midnight’s Children_. There’s a significant stylistic difference; the magic in fantasy stories is usually rationally explicable once you know what the rules are; magical realism not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/78 "2010-10-14T22:02:59Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There’s a significant stylistic difference; the magic in fantasy stories is usually rationally explicable once you know what the rules are; magical realism not so much. Pulling from the Wikipedia article… > [@](#): > > As recently as 2008, magical realism in literature has been defined as “a kind of modern fiction in which fabulous and fantastical events are included in a narrative that otherwise maintains the ‘reliable’ tone of objective realistic report, designating a tendency of the modern novel to reach beyond the confines of realism and draw upon the energies of fable, folk tale, and myth while maintaining a strong contemporary social relevance. The fantastic attributes given to characters in such novels — levitation, flight, telepathy, telekinesis — are among the means that magic realism adopts in order to encompass the often phantasmagorical political realities of the 20th century.” I’d say that applies to _American Gods_ quite neatly. Of course, the distinction that is often made is that in something more traditionally considered magical realism, the fantasy elements are presented in a very straightforward way, as though they’re perfectly natural; while in Gaiman’s novels, the surreal is encountered as another layer that exists below the reality we see now, but something that is very surprising and unnatural to the protagonist being exposed to it. Although one of my favorite authors is Haruki Murakami, and I’d qualify some of his stuff as falling into this classification–and the protagonists there often exhibit the same unfamiliarity with the other worlds as do Gaiman’s. Given some definitions of magical realism, however, it could simply be that I’m using the term in a less commonly accepted or idiosyncratic way. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/79 "2010-10-14T22:26:36Z")
Errr … what thread am I in again? ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096/80 "2010-10-14T22:28:12Z")
> [@Dogzilla](#): > > The last thing I want to do is go home and read high-end literature or watch Helvetica (a documentary about the development of a _font_. I prefer Palatino Linotype and refused to watch Helvetica too. Absolute rubish. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hells-kitchen-and-its-viewers/557096.md?page=5)