# Help a goy understand the differences between different Orthodox Jewish sects **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 17, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011 "2012-10-17T15:06:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/21 "2012-10-18T14:50:30Z")
I’m a she 🙂 All I was saying was that while the OP was analogizing the differences between Orthodox Jewish groups to the differences among Christian denominations, I do not think the analogy holds, because the Christian group differences are mostly matters of theology (hence the Christian theological examples that I gave), while the Jewish group differences are over matters of law and worldview. **AK84** , I don’t think there’s any Orthodox group that makes theology its major focus. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘common culture.’ I used ‘Ultra-Orthodox’ because AFAIK, that’s the scholarly term and the one most likely to be understood in this setting. They would definitely not refer to themselves that way, but the Yeshivish and the Hasidic tend not to lump themselves into a single group with a single term, at least in the US. In Israel, they’d be referred to as ‘haredi,’ literally meaning ‘fearful ones,’ as in ‘those who fear G-d’. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/22 "2012-10-18T14:51:12Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > There is also by no means a consensus among Christians on the nature of the Trinity. OK. It was a little unclear, implying for me that they differ in how it is interpreted, which was a shocker. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/23 "2012-10-18T15:18:22Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > … > > What’s a good resource for a non-Jew to understand the basics or even the intricacies of all these sects? For example, what’s the difference between Chabad and Satmar, other than the fact that they have different leaders? Do they get along well, or at least as well, as, say, Lutherans and Anglicans do? Do they proselytize each other? E.g. do Satmar Jews consider Chabad Jews to be heretics and in danger of damnation unless they convert to Satmar? Are Skver Jews discouraged from marrying a Chabad or are Chabad Jews disowned by their parents for “converting” to Skver?.. This part of OP has not really been addressed, besides sartorially. I don’t know of any book on the topic, but I’m sure they’re out there, even if they are behind the times in the day-to-day bickering and resolutions that typify sects. Wiki has surprisingly long and detailed entries on even the most minute sect. I’m sure as shit a marriage across sects is a no-no. About damnation, the don’t really put it in those terms. Contempt across sects is the best that they can do. Although I would not be surprised if fist-fights have broken out at the street level. A YouTube of a beat-down in a Satmar synagogue between followers of different dynastic successors is a perennial favorite, but that’s intra-sect. I often think that the genius of secular Israel is creating space for their flourishing, but not for their social inclinations (beyond the heated, and hated, military exemption). Israel could be Iraq or Yugoslavia squared, were it not for its essential, and religously guarded, founding principle. Anyway, I cannot grasp the Hassidic sects’ multivariant distinctions. However, you might want to look up Wiki on Satmar, and their grudging and fairly recent thoughts on whether the State of Israel is an abomination, and should not exist. They are I think they are the second largest sect in NYC, and of course vote whatever the Rebbe says. A yearly ritual for every politician is to be photographed on stage with the Satmar Rebbe surrounded by his disciples and an adoring crowd: this also signifies to other voters that he has the _most_ Jewishy support of all, and is clearly to be trusted. If the general Jewish voters, and of course the politician, only knew that for decades the politician was standing on stage with people whose opinions on Israel ultimately matched those of Arafat and his most fervent sympathizers. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/24 "2012-10-18T16:05:47Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > In Israel, where everybody is Jewish and you can’t tell the players without a scorecard, modern Orthodox, who serve in the military and are the vast majority of religious Jews, are termed “knitted kipas”. Not exactly - even the modern orthodox are broken down into at least two groups. There are MO, and there is a group loosely known as “chardal;” they are sort of between MO and chareidi. > [@](#): > > For the rest of the Hassidim–the charedim, with a vocalized cough of “ch”–sartorial hints can take you only so far. Lubavitchers, who send Jewish missionaries-for-Jews to all corners of the world, and are surely the most visible in the secular areas of major cities, can be spotted by their sporty Borsalino hats. Actually, Lubavitch wear black hats, but they are not sporty. Lubavitch black hats have sort of a mashed look; that’s how one can tell the difference between someone Lubavitch and someone Yeshivish (who do wear sporty Borsalino black hats, usually with a wide brim.) > [@](#): > > For the rest, all I can get is the black socks versus the white socks (the knee-high leggings they wear when duded-up for Sabbath). Black socks, white socks, plain long black jackets, long jackets with intricate colored designs, round fur hats (streimals), tall fur hats (spodeks) . . . the list goes on and on . . . ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/25 "2012-10-18T17:41:10Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Not exactly - even the modern orthodox are broken down into at least two groups. There are MO, and there is a group loosely known as “chardal;” they are sort of between MO and chareidi. Note that this is an Israeli distinction; ‘chardal’ is an acronym meaning chareidi, but supporting of the State of Israel. There’s no such group outside of Israel. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/26 "2012-10-18T19:13:04Z")
Gee, and here I thought it just meant mustard. Gila, you did a great job there - I don’t really feel I have anything to add to it at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/27 "2012-10-18T19:49:34Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I asked this explicit question to a woman on a bus I was chatting with. She was assuredly Hassidic, “ultra-Orthodox,” to the extent of following one particular sub-cult with its own Rebbe, geographic roots, etc. She didn’t agree that she was “ultra-Orthodox”–I pressed her on what she thought the word meant. She thought of herself simply as Orthodox. Was it unusual that a Hasidic woman would have a casual conversation with a man? > [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Black socks, white socks, plain long black jackets… _Black coat White shoes Black hat Cadillac The boy’s a time bom-mb_ ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/28 "2012-10-18T20:36:27Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Was it unusual that a Hasidic woman would have a casual conversation with a man? Yes, it’s unusual. I’m sure she was answering out of politeness. I’m also sure she wouldn’t have struck up a conversation with you. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/29 "2012-10-19T03:33:49Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > This is a VERY big question. I’m not aware of a good online source to explain it all. I will do my best, focusing on American Orthodox Jews. (I’m one.) It will be long… > … Does this answer your questions? Extraordinary post. Gracious of you to put in the time and thought. As Orthodox congregants or any group of auditors to an exemplary talk say, yasher koach: literally, more power to you. Leo ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/30 "2012-10-19T03:36:18Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > … One famous convert was [Sammy Davis Jr.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sammy_Davis,_Jr.) What’s Elizabeth Taylor, chopped liver? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/31 "2012-10-19T03:42:26Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > Note that this is an Israeli distinction; ‘chardal’ is an acronym meaning chareidi, but supporting of the State of Israel. There’s no such group outside of Israel. When did this word start floating around? ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/32 "2012-10-19T19:09:46Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > Extraordinary post. Gracious of you to put in the time and thought. > > As Orthodox congregants or any group of auditors to an exemplary talk say, yasher koach: literally, more power to you. > > Leo Thank you! As for when ‘chardal’ became a thing, I don’t know. I don’t think I knew it until adulthood, but I’m not Israeli. ---
**Author:** ![Noone\_Special](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/noone_special/32/2863_2.png) [@Noone\_Special](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noone_Special)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011/33 "2012-10-19T21:05:37Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > Thank you! > > As for when ‘chardal’ became a thing, I don’t know. I don’t think I knew it until adulthood, but I’m not Israeli. I’d say about 15 years ago, maybe 20. And it doesn’t mean just Haredim who _support_ Israel, but who are actively _right-wing_ (mostly, extremly instratigent on any kind of compromise on the West Bank / Judea & Samaria.) Haredim who have, explicitly or implicitly, woven themselves into the fabric of the Israeli nation are an overwhelming _majority_ of the Haredi population at this point; but politically they tended to be relatively pragmatic / uniterested / dovish on the territorial issues until relatively recently – which change is what has earned them the _Hardal_ moniker. \*\*cmkeller \*\*-- it’s no coincidence that the acronym _hardal_ took; being pronounced as an existing Hebrew word helped 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-a-goy-understand-the-differences-between-different-orthodox-jewish-sects/638011.md?page=1)