# Help an atheist understand how the Israel-Palestine conflict is \*not\* a religious war. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570 "2015-07-08T12:40:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/21 "2015-07-09T19:50:55Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It’s a clear example of how what appears to be a religious conflict on the surface is simply using it as a substitute for tribal affiliation. It’s true in Northern Ireland, and it’s true in Israel. You asked for understanding, and examples are an excellent way of providing that. Looking at similar conflicts provides illustration. > > Sorry if you don’t want to discuss it, but it’s clearly on point to the conversation. No, it’s not. Take it elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/22 "2015-07-09T19:51:51Z")
It is an ethno-nationalist conflict, not a “religious war”. Most of the Zionist founding fathers were socialists and atheists. On the other side, many of their Arab adversaries were followers of some form of Arab nationalism, and came from a variety of religious backgrounds (that is, they were by no means all Muslim) - they were darlings of revolutionary marxists in the '70s. Marxists were hardly the most “religious” of folks (well, unless you consider Marxism a religion). See for example the career of George Habash - Christian background, Marxist, anti-Israeli terrorist. > **[George Habash](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Habash)** > > George Habash (Arabic: جورج حبش, romanized: Jūrj Ḥabash), also known by his laqab "al-Hakim" (Arabic: الحكيم, romanized: al-Ḥakīm, "the wise one" or "the doctor"; 2 August 1926 – 26 January 2008) was a Palestinian Christian politician who founded the Marxist–Leninist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP). Habash served as General Secretary of the PFLP until 2000, when ill health forced him to resign. > Habash was born in Lydda (today's Lod) to a Greek Orthodox Christian Palestinia... A conflict that historically had many atheists on both sides doesn’t look much like a “religious war”. Though some on the Arab side have grown a lot more “religious” in recent decades, with the rise of militant Islam generally in the region. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/23 "2015-07-09T20:04:03Z")
It’s like the Prots and Papests in Ireland: They’re not really fighting over doctrine or liturgy, but, rather, religious identity has long since morphed into ethnic/tribal identity (and really was that to begin with). ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/24 "2015-07-09T20:15:52Z")
Another way for an atheist to look at it: Israel was not the only place considered at various times and by various people as a “Jewish homeland”. Uganda, some place in Siberia, Madagascar and Alaska were all considered at one point or another. > **[Proposals for a Jewish state](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state)** > > There were several proposals for a Jewish state in the course of Jewish history between the destruction of ancient Israel and the founding of the modern State of Israel. While some of those have come into existence, others were never implemented. The Jewish national homeland usually refers to the State of Israel or the Land of Israel, depending on political and religious beliefs. Jews and their supporters, as well as their detractors and anti-Semites have put forth plans for Jewish states. > In ... Of them, only the proposal for Siberia ever took off. Apparently, it still exists in that a tiny number of Jews still live there. > **[Jewish Autonomous Oblast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast)** > > The Jewish Autonomous Oblast (JAO; Russian: Евре́йская автоно́мная о́бласть (ЕАО), romanized: Yevreyskaya avtonomnaya oblast; Yiddish: ייִדישע אװטאָנאָמע געגנט, romanized: yidishe avtonome gegnt, IPA: \[jɪdɪʃɛ avtɔnɔmɛ ɡɛɡnt\])\[note 1\] is a federal subject of Russia situated in the far east of the country, bordering Khabarovsk Krai and Amur Oblast in Russia and Heilongjiang province in China. Its administrative center is the town of Birobidzhan. > The JAO was designated by a Soviet official decree... Why was a “Jewish homeland” necessary? Not, as one may think, because Jews by and large _wanted_ one necessarily - rather, because of the threat to their lives from their non-Jewish neighbours (or a desire on the part of those non-Jewish neighbours to deport them). In short, it was their _identity as Jews_ that mattered - as a matter of ancestry, not as a matter of religion. Often, it was an identity imposed on individuals whether they wanted it or not. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/25 "2015-07-09T21:41:42Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Seriously, go start your own thread if you’re curious. Don’t threadshit here, please. > [@stpauler](#): > > No, it’s not. Take it elsewhere. You do not get to order other posters to go elsewhere. The comparison to the Troubles in Northern Ireland is extremely close. No one had battles over Transubstantiation; the battles were over the cultural clans that were defined by the church one’s parents attended, (since many of the battlers did not even attend church, themselves). You do not have to pay attention to attempts to help your understanding. You are not permitted to tell them to go away. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/26 "2015-07-09T21:45:25Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > [Can Jewish folk pray at the Temple Mount now?](http://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2014/11/the-temple-mount-in-whose-hands/#./) That is not a theological question. it is a cultural question. A declaration that religion played no role, at all, in the various feuds would be overstating the case. However, the issue is simply not one of “religious war.” it is not, for the reasons that have already been pointed out by multiple posters. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/27 "2015-07-10T11:51:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You do not get to order other posters to go elsewhere. > > The comparison to the Troubles in Northern Ireland is extremely close. No one had battles over Transubstantiation; the battles were over the cultural clans that were defined by the church one’s parents attended, (since many of the battlers did not even attend church, themselves). > > You do not have to pay attention to attempts to help your understanding. You are not permitted to tell them to go away. > > [/Moderating] No, it really isn’t. Fuck this. I’m out. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/28 "2015-07-10T13:10:33Z")
If we define religion as “vaguely supernatural-based doctrine” and “religious war” as a war wherein at least one faction buys into a religion and the leadership exhorts the masses using at least vaguely religious terms, then all wars of history have been religious, even WWII. So clearly that’s not a useful set of definitions. So we need to arrive first at what we think the terms really do mean. Then we can start to talk about whether any given war, current or historical, qualifies as a religious war. Competing cites from current media babble are not going to be enlightening. That’s how we get to the place where “religious war” means whatever the speaker or audience guesses it means. Today. For this particular set of combatants. That way lies fruitless bickering and hurt feelings. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/29 "2015-07-10T14:15:47Z")
Israel-Palestine threads often melt down badly - but I must admit, I’ve never seen one melt down like this before. 😕 As for “religious war” - I’d define that as something that, at least mostly, was inspired by a desire to impose one’s religion, or extend the influence of one’s religion, over a territory or population, or to obtain religious benefits for the participants: as in the First Crusade, the Albigensian Crusade, or the wars of Islamic expansion. Of course, like every war, most religous wars have more than one motive: the opportunity for plunder and glory may have played as much a part, depending on the individual, as religious indulgences in motivating knights to sign up for the First Crusade. I’d say that the war is a “religious war” where the primary ostensible motive was a religious one (imposing one’s religion on others, gaining territory to extend the influence of one’s religion in pursuit of some sort of religious manifest destiny, or gaining personal religious benefits such as indulgences – or protecting oneself against others attempting one of these goals). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/30 "2015-07-10T14:23:18Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If we define religion as “vaguely supernatural-based doctrine” and “religious war” as a war wherein at least one faction buys into a religion and the leadership exhorts the masses using at least vaguely religious terms, then all wars of history have been religious, even WWII. > > So clearly that’s not a useful set of definitions. So we need to arrive first at what we think the terms really do mean. Then we can start to talk about whether any given war, current or historical, qualifies as a religious war. > > Competing cites from current media babble are not going to be enlightening. That’s how we get to the place where “religious war” means whatever the speaker or audience guesses it means. Today. For this particular set of combatants. > > That way lies fruitless bickering and hurt feelings. That’s a very good question. Can those of you who have said that the Israeli-Palestine conflict and the Irish conflict are not religious wars please tell us what current wars actually qualify as “religious wars” in your mind. If you are the mind that there can be no such thing as a “religious war”, please be upfront about it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/31 "2015-07-10T14:23:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > In fact, the Orthodox establishment, in general, \*opposed \*the pre-state Zionists on religious grounds - according to mainstream Jewish thought, they were supposed to wait for the Messiah to come, and not attempt to reclaim the country themselves. Would it be fair to say that _today_ the Orthodox establishment is more Zionist than the religious moderates (Reformists?)? > [@Malthus](#): > > Israel-Palestine threads often melt down badly - but I must admit, I’ve never seen one melt down like this before. 😕 I don’t see where the thread melted down. It was just one poster. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/32 "2015-07-10T14:27:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > That’s a very good question. Can those of you who have said that the Israeli-Palestine conflict and the Irish conflict are not religious wars please tell us what current wars actually qualify as “religious wars” in your mind. If you are the mind that there can be no such thing as a “religious war”, please be upfront about it. Right now, the current conflict with ISIS is a religious war. Similarly, the current conflict in Nigeria with Boko Haram. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/33 "2015-07-10T14:32:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Would it be fair to say that _today_ the Orthodox establishment is more Zionist than the religious moderates (Reformists?)? If you mean “Reform Judaism”, that movement is mostly a North American thing - it has little presence in Israel, as far as I know. Within Israel, the main issue is secular vs. religious. Zionism is orthogonal to that classification. > [@](#): > > I don’t see where the thread melted down. It was just one poster. Fair enough - but that poster was the thread starter. Just remarking that it was an odd reaction. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/34 "2015-07-10T14:32:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Right now, the current conflict with ISIS is a religious war. Similarly, the current conflict in Nigeria with Boko Haram. What makes the ISIS conflict more a religious war than the Israeli-Palestine conflict? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/35 "2015-07-10T14:40:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What makes the ISIS conflict more a religious war than the Israeli-Palestine conflict? Because the goals of ISIS are more explicitly religious - to create an Islamic Caliphate that will carry forward the ‘program’ of Islamic Manifest destiny, and to terrorize or intimidate everyone within theor territory into accepting a particular interpretation of Islam. In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the goals of both sides were much more similar to those of any other ethno-nationalist group - to create an etnically-based “homeland” in a defined territory (Jewish on the one hand, Palestinian on the other). While there have been some on both sides with expressly religious/millenial goals, they aren’t historically representative of mainstream thought on either side. Put it this way: can you picture George Habash (a Christian Marxist) fighting on behalf of ISIS? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/36 "2015-07-10T14:49:42Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Because the goals of ISIS are more explicitly religious - to create an Islamic Caliphate that will carry forward the ‘program’ of Islamic Manifest destiny, and to terrorize or intimidate everyone within theor territory into accepting a particular interpretation of Islam. > > In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the goals of both sides were much more similar to those of any other ethno-nationalist group - to create an etnically-based “homeland” in a defined territory (Jewish on the one hand, Palestinian on the other). While there have been some on both sides with expressly religious/millenial goals, they aren’t historically representative of mainstream thought on either side. > > Put it this way: can you picture George Habash (a Christian Marxist) fighting on behalf of ISIS? So the difference would be the goals of those who lead, and not those who necessarily follow? I’m not sure all the young people that are joining up with ISIS are doing so “to create an Islamic Caliphate that will carry forward the ‘program’ of Islamic Manifest destiny, and to terrorize or intimidate everyone within their territory into accepting a particular interpretation of Islam”-that just doesn’t seem to bee a message one would use to entice a teenager to leave friends and family with. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/37 "2015-07-10T14:57:38Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So the difference would be the goals of those who lead, and not those who necessarily follow? I’m not sure all the young people that are joining up with ISIS are doing so “to create an Islamic Caliphate that will carry forward the ‘program’ of Islamic Manifest destiny, and to terrorize or intimidate everyone within their territory into accepting a particular interpretation of Islam”-that just doesn’t seem to bee a message one would use to entice a teenager to leave friends and family with. Huh? My impression is that young people are joining for exactly that reason. To provide a sense of being part of something far more significant, and to gain purely spiritual/religious rewards. Why do you think people willingly sign up to become suicide bombers? It isn’t for material reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/38 "2015-07-10T14:59:12Z")
I think it’s fair to say that 72 virgins and an eternity in Paradise are material rewards, even if you have to be dead to receive them. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/39 "2015-07-10T15:08:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think it’s fair to say that 72 virgins and an eternity in Paradise are material rewards, even if you have to be dead to receive them. Ah, that would be a “no”. 😉 Material rewards are, by definition, material - that is, something that is verifiably present in _this_ world. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/40 "2015-07-10T15:14:20Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Huh? My impression is that young people are joining for exactly that reason. To provide a sense of being part of something far more significant, and to gain purely spiritual/religious rewards. Why do you think people willingly sign up to become suicide bombers? It isn’t for material reasons. It might not be that particular goal, but the method used to reach the goal that attracts a certain type of person. I found [a very interesting Mother Jones article](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/inquiring-minds-arie-kruglanski-psychology-extremism-isis) that says that some people find a need for a “black-or-white” fundamentalist world, and that ISIS actively recruits these people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570.md?page=3)