# Help an atheist understand how the Israel-Palestine conflict is \*not\* a religious war. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570 "2015-07-08T12:40:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/41 "2015-07-10T15:21:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It might not be that particular goal, but the method used to reach the goal that attracts a certain type of person. I found [a very interesting Mother Jones article](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/08/inquiring-minds-arie-kruglanski-psychology-extremism-isis) that says that some people find a need for a “black-or-white” fundamentalist world, and that ISIS actively recruits these people. Well, sure, and ethno-nationalsim may also tap into that particular requirement. See for example that old but still useful account _The True Believer_ by Eric Hoffer, who argues that extremist movements share a fundamental similarity. That doesn’t mean that we can’t usefully differentiate them for other purposes though. Those engaged in religious wars are clearly very different in some prestty fundamental ways from ethno-nationalists. For example, the goals of ethno-nationalists may be a lot more limited, and thus easier to satisfy with limited gains and compromises. The goals of religious warriors may be unobtainable in any rational sense - as in, it is unlikely that the whole world will adopt radical Islam any time soon, but it is perfectly possible to create a “Jewish homeland” or a “Palestinian homeland”. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/42 "2015-07-10T15:24:11Z")
I think I’d agree with **Malthus** that the vast majority of followers of ISIS (or who went on the Crusades for that matter) were guided by a sense of imposing their religion upon others in some form or another. I don’t think that applies to Israel-Palestine as much - perhaps with certain Palestinian groups, but I don’t think most Fatah members or even most Hamas members are really guided by that sort of notion. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/43 "2015-07-10T15:27:08Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Ah, that would be a “no”. 😉 Material rewards are, by definition, material - that is, something that is verifiably present in _this_ world. But the rewards of the next world as certain Islamic sects define them are material in theory, if not in fact. Having a lot of submissive girls to fuck is clearly quite different than Oneness with the Ultimate, or whatever it is other religious people think they’ll experience in heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/44 "2015-07-10T15:31:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But the rewards of the next world as certain Islamic sects define them are material in theory, if not in fact. Having a lot of submissive girls to fuck is clearly quite different than Oneness with the Ultimate, or whatever it is other religious people think they’ll experience in heaven. Large mansions and streets paved with gold aren’t exactly the most spiritual rewards, either. ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/45 "2015-07-10T15:36:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > But the rewards of the next world as certain Islamic sects define them are material in theory, if not in fact. Having a lot of submissive girls to fuck is clearly quite different than Oneness with the Ultimate, or whatever it is other religious people think they’ll experience in heaven. ```auto ``` Precisely. If even _one_ of those 72 virgins is not material, I know I’ll be suing _somebody_. Er, I mean my distant cousin will be. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/46 "2015-07-10T15:38:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Large mansions and streets paved with gold aren’t exactly the most spiritual rewards, either. What, is _Dick Whittington_ a Christian allegory too? 😃 Even true believers don’t take Revelation seriously, do they? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/47 "2015-07-10T19:29:53Z")
TODAY, the fighting between Israel and its Arab neighbors sometimes takes on religious tones. But never forget that during the Six Day War, Egypt and Israel were both run by their least religious leaders ever. Nasser was a secular socialist, and so was Golda Meir. Neither had a religious bone in his/her body. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/48 "2015-07-10T19:32:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Even true believers don’t take Revelation seriously, do they? 😕 Well, of course we do, but in taking it seriously we don’t think it’s like a golden suburbia. (or that we really know what the New Heavens and the New Earth are going to be like) ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/49 "2015-07-10T20:23:30Z")
It wasn’t until the theocratic Iran started backing local militias - Hamas and Hezbollah - that the Arab-Israeli conflict took on a religious tone. As others have pointed out, Arab Christians were no small part of the anti-Israel Lebanese government and PLO in the early going. It’s only when Hezbollah became strong in Lebanon that Lebanese Christian groups started allying with Israel, and it’s only when Hamas became strong among the Palestinians that the PLO leadership started publicly talking up Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/50 "2015-07-10T20:57:39Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > No, it really isn’t. Brilliant rhetoric. > [@Hiker](#): > > Is there even such a thing as a “religious war”? It seems to me that in all of these conflicts religion is little more than a marketing tool. “I am fighting for the holy truth!” just sounds so much better than “I really want to rule over that hill!” Besides being able to tell your troops that some god will reward them for their bleeding may relieve you from having to do it yourself. It seems to me that the Crusades were religious wars; they said they were, and they weren’t fought over resources. Did many of the leaders have ulterior motives? No doubt. I agree with **Malthus** that ISIS is waging a religious war. They certainly say that they are, and I believe them. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is not a matter of theology; it’s a fight over territory and resources. Millions left or were driven from their homes and not allowed to return. That’s what it’s about. If they’d been allowed to return and there was still a war over a theocratic issue, then I’d call it a religious war. As it is, it’s no more a religious war than between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/51 "2015-07-11T03:03:21Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > The Israel/Palestinian conflict is not a matter of theology; it’s a fight over territory and resources. \*\* Millions \*\*left or were driven from their homes and not allowed to return. That’s what it’s about. Minor nitpick. Thats a bit of an exaggeration. Around 700,000 Palestinians fled during the Israeli War for Independence and roughly the same number of Jews fled from the Middle Eastern Muslim countries. Both were IMHO examples of ethnic cleansing but neither side had “millions” driven from their home. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570/52 "2015-07-11T19:24:14Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Minor nitpick. Thanks for the correction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-an-atheist-understand-how-the-israel-palestine-conflict-is-not-a-religious-war/724570.md?page=2)