# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/181 "2010-07-01T02:36:01Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So in other words, since I’m an abortion rights supporter, in your world I’m totally justified in being wary of all Christians. > > Great job. I really appreciate it. To be honest, I don’t really know. and now that women have been involved, it gets harder. Possibly to the point that not much can be done. But I will say, that if I were in charge of National Security I’d do whatever I had to to know what is going on in particular Mosques. But the only point I’ve been making in this thread is that I think that Muslims merit some degree of scrutiny or wariness. Eighty-year-old Norwegian ladies, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/182 "2010-07-01T02:38:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Alright, Pinky, but how are we going to undo Pearl Harbor? I was going to fix that, but a a radical Islamist blew up my time machine. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/183 "2010-07-01T03:37:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, if someone is in a household where the father or brother drinks or has drug problems and can be violent, then it probably makes sense for that person to be more concerned about a family member killing him than a random Muslim. So now we want to get into assessment of specific threats. Your interest in doing so seems to be very sporadically applied. > [@](#): > > That aside, I see no reason to be wary of Christians, especially not _due to_ their Christianity. Until someone pointed out that the anti-abortion Christians have threatened violence against people like you and then you needed to think about it some more. You just have the usual human inability to judge risk levels well, with the common underassessment of risks from the familiar and overassessment of risks from the unfamiliar. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/184 "2010-07-01T04:46:03Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > So now we want to get into assessment of specific threats. Your interest in doing so seems to be very sporadically applied. You assess the specific ones when you can, like when you know the people, live with them. When you don’t have the benefit of that, it’s reasonable to see if the group they belong to offers a common denominator of sorts. > [@Princhester](#): > > Until someone pointed out that the anti-abortion Christians have threatened violence against people like you and then you needed to think about it some more. Huh? > [@Princhester](#): > > You just have the usual human inability to judge risk levels well, with the common underassessment of risks from the familiar and overassessment of risks from the unfamiliar. So you say… But you are entitled to your opinion, dangerous as it may be. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/185 "2010-07-01T08:25:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Y But you are entitled to your opinion, dangerous as it may be. Coming from a place with no small nor limited experience in religiously tied terrorism that on for decades, it is **your approach that is dangerous.** Mistaking the threat as “Muslims” rather than “radicals” is precisely like the fools who saw the IRA threat as “Irish Catholics” rather than “IRA radicals and hangers on” and the more general the suspicion and prejudice against Irish Catholics, rather than targeted work, the more we generated sympathisers for those radicals. You are, in short, a fool blind to history. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/186 "2010-07-01T10:07:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, as large as those numbers are, the important thing is that they were not unrelated acts. They all come from the same place: radical Islam and it’s desire to see Americans dead. > > It seems that you look at that and shrug your shoulders. If so, I ask: if there was another attack, would that change your view? Five more attacks? Ten? Fifty? Is their any number of attacks/attempts that would cause you to say, “What the fuck is it with Islam? Enough already!!!”? What’s the number? Or is their no number for you. And you’ll go on thinking Islam is as peaceful a religion (“is”, not “can be”) as Quakerism, or (shudder) Christianity until you happen to be in something they blow up? You continue to misread. I never said that no Muslims were a threat. There is a real threat from radical Islam. There’s even a larger-than-average threat to me personally. I mentioned it in my OP. You ignored it, so I pointed it out to you again. It is not “shrugging my shoulders” to point out that the fact that a tiny minority (and it is indeed a tiny minority) of Muslims commit heinous acts does not justify the persecution and harassment of millions of innocent ones. How many [Catholic abuse cases](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases) does it take to make you say “What the fuck is it with Catholicism? Enough already!!!” Is 5% of Catholic priests a big enough group to start locking them all up? [How](http://mojoey.blogspot.com/2010/06/youth-pastor-efrain-caban-arrested.html) [many](http://www.ketv.com/news/22596266/detail.html) [Protestant](http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Youth-pastor--92780884.html) [youth](http://www.wkyt.com/home/headlines/49746512.html) [minister](http://proudatheists.wordpress.com/2010/05/20/virginia-youth-pastor-sentenced-to-17-years-for-sexual-abuse/) [abuse](http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1N1-10219CA8A2D27688.html) [cases](http://www.cephas-library.com/baptists_youth_pastor_illicit_sex.html) [does](http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=12166) [it](http://wjz.com/local/child.porn.baltimore.2.1233253.html) [take](http://gazettextra.com/news/2008/aug/28/former-walworth-county-youth-pastor-denies-sexual-/) [before](http://christianchildabuse.blogspot.com/2010/05/youth-pastor-charged-with-sex-assault.html) [we](http://www.14wfie.com/global/story.asp?s=10962881) [can](http://www.seattlepi.com/local/319662_pastor14.html) [start](http://www.allbusiness.com/society-social/religion-spirituality-religion/14432161-1.html) [tarring](http://www.pinewswire.net/2010/06/youth-pastor-accused-of-sexting-teen-boy/) [them](http://vodpod.com/watch/3322512-mother-youth-pastor-raped-my-daughter) [all](http://www.oregonlive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/baker_city_youth_pastor_accuse.html) [with](http://www.waaytv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9164923) [the](http://www.fetidfruit.com/2010/03/methodist-pastor-sentenced-for-sexual.html) [same](http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/4852/53/) [brush](http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/1999/august9/9t9021.html)? Will you now object to the portrayal of Christianity as a loving, kind religion that cares for children? Should we shut down every church school and youth ministry? Hell, let’s act suspicious around all [Irish guys](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/northernireland/7864018/Real-IRA-commander-caught-in-MI5-arms-dealing-sting.html) - they keep blowing people up. I mean sure, it’s only a few radicals and there are millions of others who live peaceful lives and even openly deplore the violence but hey - we can’t really be sure which ones they are (those alcoholic white guys all look alike anyway) so we’d better declare the whole lot to be potential terrorists and act accordingly, just in case. (You remember the IRA, right - they’re the terrorists _Americans_ happily funded for decades.) What you seem to be missing in this entire thread is that it’s not about the Muslims at all. It’s about you, and us, and how we react to these attacks. If you happen to think that the proper reaction is to start restricting freedoms then you and your ilk are far more dangerous to America than they are, because it takes a hell of a lot longer to kill 300 million people in terrorist attacks than it does for a few well-meaning pussies to tear up the Constitution. But if you want to hide under your bed don’t let me stop you. Don’t forget to take your blankie with you. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/187 "2010-07-01T10:25:17Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > You are, in short, a fool blind to history. Beautifully put. **magellan01** , you’re also blind to the current experiences of all the people in this thread and on this board who actually _do_ know Muslims - or indeed _are_ Muslims - who realise that, hey, they may have rules to life that I don’t approve of, but in the vast, vast majority, they’re just people wanting to get by. You’re indulging in and encouraging the same prejudices that creates things like internment. Radical Islam is a real problem, but it’s minute compared to the risk you run of being killed by a white American. By your logic, therefore… **magellan01** , you are a mouse, rotting within your ignorance, and displaying your cowardice for all to see. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/188 "2010-07-01T10:35:08Z")
Ewwwww…rotting mouse… ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/189 "2010-07-01T10:45:13Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Coming from a place with no small nor limited experience in religiously tied terrorism that on for decades, it is **your approach that is dangerous.** Mistaking the threat as “Muslims” rather than “radicals” is precisely like the fools who saw the IRA threat as “Irish Catholics” rather than “IRA radicals and hangers on” and the more general the suspicion and prejudice against Irish Catholics, rather than targeted work, the more we generated sympathisers for those radicals. > > You are, in short, a fool blind to history. Well said. Thank you for this post. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/190 "2010-07-01T13:03:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Ewwwww…rotting mouse… Add in Valteron & Perciful (& the “blindness” cited in **wmfellows** ’ excellent post) and we’ve got Three Blind Rotting Mice! (See how they run.) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/191 "2010-07-01T14:04:25Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Beautifully put. > > **magellan01** , you’re also blind to the current experiences of all the people in this thread and on this board who actually _do_ know Muslims - or indeed _are_ Muslims. Well, can’t trust _those_. Shifty Muslims dopers, terrorists all. Coaxing the open-eyed, vigilant defenders of Freedom into a false sense of security. We’re up to their tricks. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/192 "2010-07-01T14:04:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …and it’s desire to see Americans dead. You make this look like a bad thing… 🙂 Don’t the Americans love to be hated, because everyone else is just jealous about them being the so called “God blessed Country”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/193 "2010-07-01T14:38:04Z")
HA! You guys crack me up, the lot of you. Let’s see… Okay, let me ask you all, what is it—specifically—that I’ve proposed _that we do_ that is so irrational? So awful? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/194 "2010-07-01T14:49:43Z")
Becoming bigots like you is rational? Who knew? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/195 "2010-07-01T15:08:14Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Becoming bigots like you is rational? Who knew? Okay, that’s one non-answer. Anyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/196 "2010-07-01T15:09:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Now, as large as those numbers are, the important thing is that they were not unrelated acts. They all come from the same place: radical Islam and it’s desire to see Americans dead. > > It seems that you look at that and shrug your shoulders. If so, I ask: if there was another attack, would that change your view? Five more attacks? Ten? Fifty? Is their any number of attacks/attempts that would cause you to say, “What the fuck is it with Islam? Enough already!!!”? What’s the number? Or is their no number for you. And you’ll go on thinking Islam is as peaceful a religion (“is”, not “can be”) as Quakerism, or (shudder) Christianity until you happen to be in something they blow up? The difference here between fanatic Islam and fanatic Christianity is that the followers of Christianity have more powerful militaries, and when they want to attack an Islamic nation they send in the bombers and the missiles and the troops, and kill people by the tens or hundreds of thousands, instead of a thousand or so. Christianity and Islam are both barbaric by nature, and there’s less to choose between the two of them than the proponents of either like to think. > [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, let me ask you all, what is it—specifically—that I’ve proposed _that we do_ that is so irrational? So awful? Your attempt to pretend that there’s something especially evil about Islam compared to Christianity. And your attempt to pretend that narrowing your suspect pool for terrorism down to a billion and a half people is actually useful. And your assumption that even if you do focus on Islamic people, that Islamic terrorists won’t just find or fake non-Islamic identities or proxies to do the dirty work, while dangerous non-Islamic people will waltz on through your religious filter. And the fact that the primary effect of your idea would be to harass Islamic people who aren’t terrorists. And so on. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/197 "2010-07-01T15:10:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Okay, let me ask you all, what is it—specifically—that I’ve proposed _that we do_ that is so irrational? So awful? You have specifically proposed nothing in this thread. Just a general statement that you and others should be wary of Muslims. > [@](#): > > The point, friend, is that some Muslims DO want to kill us. (And you’d be closer to the front of that line than I.) In fact, of the group of people who can be defined as “wanting to kill Americans”, Muslims make up a vast majority.Further refine that group as “those who want to kill us, have killed some of us, and continue to actively try to kill some of us”, it’s pretty much all Muslim. Now, that does not mean that all Muslims want to kill Americans, but until you have a fool-proof way cull the evil-trying-to-kill-us ones from the peaceful ones, it behooves us—or those of us who would like to not be killed or have those we cared for killed—to be wary of the whole lot. > > Got it now, friend? So let’s get down to brass tacks. This origin of this thread is about the Mosque in NY and people having problems with it. What’s your stance on it? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/198 "2010-07-01T15:17:20Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > You have specifically proposed nothing in this thread. Just a general statement that you and others should be wary of Muslims. Which is in itself irrational for reasons stated multiple times. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Christianity and Islam are both barbaric by nature, and there’s less to choose between the two of them than the proponents of either like to think. _People_ are barbaric by nature. What I’m objecting to here is people answering barbarity with more barbarity. _“Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear.” - **Bertrand Russell** _ ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/199 "2010-07-01T15:26:53Z")
Well, on the plus side [Perciful](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=5455411) hasn’t been back since. I miss the entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/200 "2010-07-01T15:28:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Christianity and Islam are both barbaric by nature, and there’s less to choose between the two of them than the proponents of either like to think. Nope. If you want to compare Islam today with Christianity five or six hundred years ago, you’d have more of a point. But as you state it, you have none. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Your attempt to pretend that there’s something especially evil about Islam compared to Christianity. Correction: something _potentially_ evil. I’m not of the belief that adherents to the religion must necessarily act in a hateful barbaric manner. It does not necessitate you hate others. That you kill innocent people, including children. That you practice strains of sharia law that are barbaric on a scale going back a few thousand years. But many who call themselves Muslims choose a belief set that allows/requires that they do these things. That places the religion itself in the spotlight. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And your assumption that even if you do focus on Islamic people, that Islamic terrorists won’t just find or fake non-Islamic identities or proxies to do the dirty work, while dangerous non-Islamic people will waltz on through your religious filter. I’ve stated that even the use of women to carry out their mayhem makes things considerably harder. Using proxies does so, as well. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And the fact that the primary effect of your idea would be to harass Islamic people who aren’t terrorists. And so on. Specifics, please. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=11)