# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/241 "2010-07-01T22:59:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, heavens! A thread where not every single point in every post was directly speaking to the OP. I think you should report this immediately!!! :rolleyes: As long as you’re aware that your posts are irrelevant, I’m okay with that. > [@](#): > > Sorry, I can’t entertain this point, as it is not directly related to the OP. Hasn’t stopped you yet. > [@](#): > > Newsflash: just because a problem may be difficult to define doesn’t mean that it is not real. And sometimes “bold” is the way to go, sometimes not. Now, my guess is that you agree with that statement, but you are just looking for ways to disparage me. Transparent, therefore weak. Disingenuous twaddle. You said > [@](#): > > I guess in the end I might come out on the side of not allowing it because it may be too hot an issue and may cause more of problem than a solution, more o a rift than a bridge. “I guess”? “Might come out on the side of”? “May be”? There are times to express things in a cautious fashion but apart from adding a few iterations of “like” and “kind of” that is the most tentatively expressed position ever. You didn’t set out an opinion there; you dropped it hurriedly and ran away from it. If you’re afraid of your own words, it’s no wonder people with funny foreign beliefs frighten you. > [@](#): > > I did not say that the building is on Ground Zero. Why? Because it’s not. I have not claimed that the people wanting to build it have condoned the attack. In fact, they have done the opposite. Yet you attempt to saddle me with this nonsense. Why? Because you suggested that the families of the 9/11 victims should specifically have some sort of veto power in the matter. Silly me, I assumed you had said that because the issue had some particular relevance to them. But who knows how your mind works. > [@](#): > > Because you’re desperate. You _want_ my position to be irrational and rooted in ignorance Wow. it’s so rare that I get what I want in life. > [@](#): > > but when you can’t find it in my actual words, you make them up. Don’t have to. It’s all there, under the weasel words. > [@](#): > > I do wish you’d try to debate in a more honest fashion. > > Now, you want bold? Here’s some bold: if you think that the building of this mosque and 9/11 are unrelated events, that they are not “somehow connected”, you are a complete and utter imbecile. And not dealing in reality. So now you’re saying what you supposedly didn’t say before and told me was “nonsense”? Or is your next argument going to be that technically you didn’t say that the people involved condoned the attacks and that the mosque was built on Ground Zero therefore TECHNICALLY you’re correct, and that by “connected” you of course mean as some sort of healing gesture and what was I thinking in assuming that you meant it in a negative way? And that’s why I’m the dishonest debater here. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/242 "2010-07-01T23:09:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Actually, no. I missed your cite of the things I said should be done. Here is what I asked for: > > > [@magellan01](#): > > > > Okay, let me ask you all, what is it—specifically—that I’ve proposed that we do that is so irrational? So awful? > [@magellan01](#): > > My point is that radical Islam poses a threat to us. And since we cannot simply point to those Muslims that are murderous barbarians, or support murderous barbarians, it behooves us to be wary of all Muslims. Pretty straightforward position. “Welcome to the Glenn Beck School of Equivocation. Mr Magellan, would you care to read your sentence to the class?” “Yes sir. ‘I’m not saying that all Muslims are terrorists or that they should all be treated as though they might be potential terrorists in all situations until they demonstrate otherwise or that they should be discriminated against in any way; I’m just saying that we need to be _wary_ of all of them.’” “Well done! Top marks.” ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/243 "2010-07-02T09:46:58Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > My neighbour taught me that, by the way. He’s seen Muslims on TV once, so he knows what he’s talking about. … did anyone forget my sideorder of fries?.. Ketchup too, please… before the new creature feature movie “Invasion of the Muslims” starts… … do I need some Holy Water?.. make it 2 liters… that just kills the bastards ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/244 "2010-07-02T16:20:38Z")
> [@Angua](#): > > And by implication? :rolleyes: > > Your suggestion that _all_ Muslims are worthy of extra scrutiny because of an **incredibly** small minority is laughable. You can’t tell just by looking at someone what their religion is, or that they’re at the nutjob level of blowing stuff up. So how do you propose to give Muslims extra scrutiny? Go on their names? Their looks? The former is unreliable, the latter is racism. On a board devoted to fighting ignorance, just how many times need it be pointed out that Muslim isn’t a race. Unbelievable. But that aside, just because race may be used doesn’t mean it’s “RACISM!!!”. Let’s say there was an assault on the North side of the Golden Gate Bridge. A man is robbed and stabbed. witnesses describe the assailant as being black, and that he took off on the bridge heading to SF on a bike. should the cops stop and question every single person? Or should they use the assailants blackness and an important piece of information to make their law enforcement efforts more effective? How about of the guy was described as being white? should blacks and hispanics get stopped? How about if he was described as being a white guy with red hair? Is that “RACISM!!!”, too? ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/245 "2010-07-02T16:23:22Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > On a board devoted to fighting ignorance, just how many times need it be pointed out that Muslim isn’t a race. Unbelievable. So tell me, in clear and simple terms how you would determine who the hell is Muslim and who isn’t, just by looking at them. Asking them won’t work – people lie. Going on names won’t work – too much ambiguity. So go on. Tell me how you propose to do this. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/246 "2010-07-02T16:25:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s say there was an assault on the North side of the Golden Gate Bridge. A man is robbed and stabbed. witnesses describe the assailant as being black, and that he took off on the bridge heading to SF on a bike. should the cops stop and question every single person? No, but neither should they stop and question every black person in California. They should stop and question black men on bikes, within, say, 3 or 4 miles of the SF side of the GGB. What you’re suggesting, this “wariness” of ALL Muslims is equivalent to the SFPD putting out an APB on black men west of the Sierras. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/247 "2010-07-02T16:32:42Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I think this is the issue that seemingly gives you a double standard. So far as I can tell, you don’t appear to consider there is any ability to “assess the specific ones” when it comes to Muslims, or, that the ability to do so is not foolproof enough for you to be confident in it. No. I’m saying that _before_ you have the opportunity to look at the particulars of an individual, you _can_ look to common denominators and assess a level of threat. It’s not nearly as effective, but, it can be valuable. Would you agree that, generally, members of a gang pose a greater threat of violence than those not in a gang? In one’s home, one has data allowing one to assess what threat might be posed by a brother or father. The claim mentioned earlier is saying that a person is a greater risk from his particular brother or father, not brothers and fathers in general. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Family members (if the point is accurate) are more likely to harm you in some way than Muslims, but you can seperate out issues that mean you don’t have to be suspicious of all your family members. So far as I can tell, you seem to entertain _no_ factors among Muslims that allow you to differentiate; as you say, you “cannot simply point to those Muslims that are murderous barbarians, or support murderous barbarians, it behooves us to be wary of all Muslims” (which seems wrong, since you know, I can point to\*\* Angua\*\*, for one, but anyway). Yes, wary of all Muslims. But that doesn’t mean that you don’t assess individual Muslims on their own particulars as you have the benefit of that added, specific information. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > My question to you essentially is, why is it that you feel comfortable differentiating in some instances but not others? Why is that there is _zero_ method of differentiating Muslims that you find acceptable, but apparently methods of differentiating other groups which are perfectly normal and rational? Specific information on individuals is superior. But if you do not have it, you’re not simply rendered unable to assess a general risk. Here are two groups: Group A is 50 people who belong to a Bridge Club. Group B is a Group os skinheads. You know no one from either group. Are you telling me that you are unable to make a reasonable assessment as to which group poses the greater threat of violence? I hope not. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/248 "2010-07-02T16:39:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Specific information on individuals is superior. But if you do not have it, you’re not simply rendered unable to assess a general risk. Here are two groups: Group A is 50 people who belong to a Bridge Club. Group B is a Group os skinheads. You know no one from either group. Are you telling me that you are unable to make a reasonable assessment as to which group poses the greater threat of violence? I hope not. What about when it’s revealed that the Bridge Club members are all KKK members and the “skinheads” are a cancer-treatment support group? Those “reasonable assessments” aren’t very reasonable sometimes and can be dead wrong. Not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all Muslims are Arabs. What are your criteria for identifying Muslims to be wary of? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/249 "2010-07-02T16:40:26Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, but neither should they stop and question every black person in California. They should stop and question black men on bikes, within, say, 3 or 4 miles of the SF side of the GGB. What you’re suggesting, this “wariness” of ALL Muslims is equivalent to the SFPD putting out an APB on black men west of the Sierras. This is good. So you do agree that race, or some other profile characteristic, not only _can_ be used in some instances, but _should_. I agree. And I agree that putting an APB on black men west of the Sierras, or even in SF generally, would not be helpful. The question is: is it wrong to do so because it is not helpful? Or is it wrong because it’s racial profiling? If the latter, what makes the profiling okay within five miles of the bridge, but not fifty, twenty miles? My reasoning would be that the interest of public safety overrides our desire to not look to race—assuming—that the law enforcement efforts have a reasonable expectation of being fruitful. Agree? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/250 "2010-07-02T16:48:40Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What about when it’s revealed that the Bridge Club members are all KKK members and the “skinheads” are a cancer-treatment support group? Those “reasonable assessments” aren’t very reasonable sometimes and can be dead wrong. Another good exchange. All additional information should be taken into account. This new, more specific information is usually of better quality (partially just because it’s more specific), so it will likely cause one to rethink his previous conclusions. More information, as in your example, is always better. My point is only that you may, even based on very little information, make reasonable assumptions. So barring any additional information about the Bridge club and the skin heads, is it not reasonable to assume that the skinheads are more apt to commit violence. If not, why not? > [@jayjay](#): > > Not all Arabs are Muslims. Not all Muslims are Arabs. What are your criteria for identifying Muslims to be wary of? Them being Muslim. Being Arab is a good indicator of being Muslim, but it is not certain. But to give you an idea of my thinking, I would be _more_ wary of a 23-year-old American (white or black) who converted to Islam in the past year than I would be of a 23-year-old Arab Muslim whose been living in the U.S. for ten year or more. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/251 "2010-07-02T16:50:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Them being Muslim. Being Arab is a good indicator of being Muslim, but it is not certain. But to give you an idea of my thinking, I would be _more_ wary of a 23-year-old American (white or black) who converted to Islam in the past year than I would be of a 23-year-old Arab Muslim whose been living in the U.S. for ten year or more. Why? And more to the point, _how would you know_?? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/252 "2010-07-02T16:51:50Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is good. So you do agree that race, or some other profile characteristic, not only _can_ be used in some instances, but _should_. I agree. And I agree that putting an APB on black men west of the Sierras, or even in SF generally, would not be helpful. The question is: is it wrong to do so because it is not helpful? Or is it wrong because it’s racial profiling? If the latter, what makes the profiling okay within five miles of the bridge, but not fifty, twenty miles? My reasoning would be that the interest of public safety overrides our desire to not look to race—assuming—that the law enforcement efforts have a reasonable expectation of being fruitful. > > Agree? It’s not profiling if it’s an actual descriptive. “African-American male” all by itself is overly broad. “African-American male, 5’10”, wearing blahblah, with a bicycle" is acceptable. My question on this is, “What characteristics are you looking out for to be wary of in this ‘be wary of Muslims’ thing?” “African-American male”, while a broad category, isn’t impossibly broad. It’s a visible characteristic (or else the witness wouldn’t have used it…you can’t describe someone as something if you don’t know about it). What characteristic do you use for “Muslim”? There are Arab Muslims, European Muslims, Asian Muslims, Indian Muslims, Persian Muslims, African Muslims, Muslims who wear beards, Muslims who don’t wear beards, Muslims who wear keffiyeh, Muslims who don’t cover their heads, Muslims who wear niqabs, burqas, hijabs, or veils, and Muslims who don’t. There are Muslims who make elaborate gestures of praying to Mecca and Muslims who simply bow their heads toward the city when necessary. There are Muslims with Arabic accents, Muslims with Indonesian accents, Muslims with English accents, Muslims with American accents. How are we figuring out who the Muslim is, here? If we concentrate on Arabs, we miss Indonesians. If we concentrate on beards, we miss the clean-shaven. If we concentrate on burqas and hijabs, we miss the Muslim women who don’t wear those things. So what’s your criterion for “wariness”? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/253 "2010-07-02T16:53:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, just [federal buildings with daycare centers in them](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing). One incident does not a pattern make. Did you really need to be told that? Oh well, ignorance fought. And by the way, [MacVeigh’s barbaric assholeness had was not Christianity-based:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing) > [@](#): > > Motivation > > The chief conspirators, Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, met in 1988 at Fort Benning during basic training for the U.S. Army.[18] Michael Fortier, McVeigh’s accomplice, was his Army roommate.[19] The three shared interests in survivalism, opposed gun control, and supported the militia movement.[20][21] They expressed anger at the federal government’s handling of the 1992 Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) standoff with Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge as well as the Waco Siege—a 1993 51-day standoff between the FBI and Branch Davidian members which began with the shooting deaths of federal agents who were attempting to execute a search warrant and ended with the deaths of David Koresh and 75 others.[22] In March 1993, McVeigh visited the Waco site during the standoff, and then again after its conclusion.[23] McVeigh later decided to bomb a federal building as a response to the raids.[ I’ve got to run, be back later. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/254 "2010-07-02T17:05:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > One incident does not a pattern make. I’m looking for the indicators of irony that I’m certain must be in the post, and not seeing any. Maybe you really _are_ retarded. > [@](#): > > Did you really need to be told that? Oh well, ignorance fought. > > And by the way, [MacVeigh’s barbaric assholeness had was not Christianity-based:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing) Are you under the impression that 9/11 was any more religiously motivated? ---
**Author:** ![Properties\_of\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Properties\_of\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Properties_of_Iron)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/255 "2010-07-02T19:37:55Z")
I should always be wary of usernames that contain L because there is a large pattern of people with L-containing usernames discriminating unfairly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/256 "2010-07-02T20:54:09Z")
_hangs head in shame_ ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/257 "2010-07-02T21:18:28Z")
_gets totally puffed up and egotistical about some random characteristic, and looks down upon others as likely bigots_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/258 "2010-07-03T22:43:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _hangs head in shame_ It’s alright - you’re one of the _good_ ones. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/259 "2010-07-04T06:43:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you under the impression that 9/11 was any more religiously motivated? 9/11 was certainly more religiously motivated than Oklahoma City. The 9/11 terrorists were motivated by a religiously based political ideology. Their actions were in furtherance of their religious ideology, and Al-Qaeda’s views are explicitly based on the Islamicism of Qutb. McVeigh and Nichols’s were in furtherance of a secular ideology; fear that the federal government had become tyrannical and was taking away the rights of the American people. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2010, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/260 "2010-07-04T08:07:46Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > McVeigh and Nichols’s were in furtherance of a secular ideology; fear that the federal government had become tyrannical and was taking away the rights of the American people. And he appears to have been involved with the Christian Identity movement, and his “Bible” The Turner Diaries is among other things antisemitic; a religious position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=14)