# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![nachtmusick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ac91a4/32.png) [@nachtmusick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nachtmusick)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/321 "2010-07-05T05:22:42Z")
I just waded through most of the thread, which mostly involves Magellan being unmercifully pilloried for suggesting that anybody should be “wary” of Middle Easterners. I don’t myself agree with the position, but the total lack of credence given to his subsequent arguments (until the last page or so) smacks of a bunch of left-wingers screaming “Heresy!!”. Under certain circumstances, both average Americans and the American security establishment are justified in counting evident Moslem belief as one factor that contributes to a feeling of disquiet. In conjunction with other behaviors that are not solely incriminating by themselves (e.g., recently entered the country, odd behavior, no visible means of support, etc.), a feeling of wariness is both inevitable and appropriate. This wariness is usually unfounded; and, in the case of the security establishment, often results in false-positive harassment. I think that average Moslems should understand why these injustices are, if not necessary, at least understandable. If Westerners feel a certain sense of dread around Moslems, it is much more a consequence of the recent actions and attitudes of Fundamentalist Islam than an expression of the age-old proclivity of humans to engage in racial stereotyping. I am sure that left-wing witch-hunters, ever in search of the racism that they believe must lie at the foundation of all injustice, will think I have improperly reversed the last statement. So be it, but understand that I don’t for one minute think that bowing toward Mecca, even in an airport, is any reason to be wary. I am in favor of profiling, but a profile that begins and ends with “Moslem” should not stir the threat meter. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/322 "2010-07-05T08:22:42Z")
> [@nachtmusick](#): > > I am sure that left-wing witch-hunters, ever in search of the racism that they believe must lie at the foundation of all injustice, will think I have improperly reversed the last statement. So be it, but understand that I don’t for one minute think that bowing toward Mecca, even in an airport, is any reason to be wary. I am in favor of profiling, but a profile that begins and ends with “Moslem” should not stir the threat meter. I’m sure you must have a means of identifying Muslims in order to profile them that amounts to more than swarthy-looking foreigner-type, right? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/323 "2010-07-05T09:26:15Z")
Good grief - I leave my Pit thread for a while and a Great Debate breaks out. But first things first: sorry, **eleanorigby** , but I’m very married, complete with irrepressible two-year-old daughter. Being landed gentry would be nice but I’m an American ex-pat who has been here for 14 years and I’m just lucky they haven’t deported me yet. I shall regretfully decline the flirtation, although if I’d known that women go for a good rant I would have tried this ages ago. > [@nachtmusick](#): > > I just waded through most of the thread, which mostly involves Magellan being unmercifully pilloried for suggesting that anybody should be “wary” of Middle Easterners. I don’t myself agree with the position, but the total lack of credence given to his subsequent arguments (until the last page or so) smacks of a bunch of left-wingers screaming “Heresy!!”. > > Under certain circumstances, both average Americans and the American security establishment are justified in counting evident Moslem belief as one factor that contributes to a feeling of disquiet. In conjunction with other behaviors that are not solely incriminating by themselves (e.g., recently entered the country, odd behavior, no visible means of support, etc.), a feeling of wariness is both inevitable and appropriate. > > This wariness is usually unfounded; and, in the case of the security establishment, often results in false-positive harassment. I think that average Moslems should understand why these injustices are, if not necessary, at least understandable. If Westerners feel a certain sense of dread around Moslems, it is much more a consequence of the recent actions and attitudes of Fundamentalist Islam than an expression of the age-old proclivity of humans to engage in racial stereotyping. > > I am sure that left-wing witch-hunters, ever in search of the racism that they believe must lie at the foundation of all injustice, will think I have improperly reversed the last statement. So be it, but understand that I don’t for one minute think that bowing toward Mecca, even in an airport, is any reason to be wary. I am in favor of profiling, but a profile that begins and ends with “Moslem” should not stir the threat meter. I understand the course of your reasoning here but **Magellan** is being pilloried for suggesting that we need to be “wary” without committing to any statement of how this wariness should manifest itself nor how he envisions us identifying specific individuals to be wary of, and in those unmentioned details lie a lot of devils. It’s all very well to say “We should be afraid of scary people” but potential actions deriving from that statement cover a very wide range of actions from simply feeling mild anxiety occasionally to organising a police state and requiring everyone to carry identification papers. Without further context, the statement is so broad as to be meaningless. Look at the debate over the Arizona immigration law. Very few people want illegal immigrants to escape any punishment for entering the US state illegally - what the kerfuffle is about is the potential it provides for the police to harass anyone looking vaguely Mexican and to require even legal US citizens to carry proof of citizenship on them when out in public. Now, the police may not be so extreme in their behavior and may in fact be sensibly circumspect in application, but I consider the best measure of a law the extent to which it can be abused. Similarly, if we start requiring all Muslims to endure special scrutiny purely for being Muslims, we are already stepping onto the slippery slope of treating them all as “others”. That way lies internment camps. Someone (I believe it was **wmfellows** ) pointed out several pages back that the thing to take away from attacks by Islamic radicals is not that Muslims are dangerous but that radicals are dangerous. And for that you must monitor not faith nor faces but behaviors and actions. Painting the entire Muslim community everywhere as potential terrorists is not the answer and ostensibly muddies the waters of appropriate security supervision. Eternal vigilance, not stereotyping, is the price of freedom. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/324 "2010-07-05T09:40:57Z")
> [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > I expect they would, because they are aware that they have a strong military force that will do their fighting for them. Suicide bombings are used partly for their pyschological impact (seems to be working on you!) and partly as it’s an economical way of fighting an enemy much larger and better armed than you. If they were in the underdog position? Perhaps a change of perspective may change attitudes. We object to suicide bombings because 1) other people are doing them to us, and 2) we can’t exact our revenge on the perpetrators because they’re already dead. It’s very frustrating. But our national rhetoric is filled with stuff about people giving their lives for their country. We’re perfectly fine with guerilla warfare and people killing themselves for a cause as long as it’s ours. Ever see the film _Red Dawn_? America is invaded by Russia, and a group of teenagers in Colorado start a guerilla war against the occupying forces. At one point they blow up a post office which could (and probably does) have civilians in it. Later, one of the characters is wounded and is left behind with a hand grenade to blow up the enemy troops following (with the understanding that she would die too). She ends up dying before the troops reach her, but the grenade goes off when they move her body. According to Wikipedia: > [@](#): > > The operation to capture former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein was named Operation Red Dawn and its targets were dubbed Wolverine 1 and Wolverine 2. Army Captain Geoffrey McMurray, who named the mission, said the naming “was so fitting because it was a patriotic, pro-American movie.” Also: > [@](#): > > National Review Online has named the film #15 in its list of “The Best Conservative Movies.” I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/325 "2010-07-05T09:52:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > One of my theories is that Islamic thought does not lend itself to anonymous debates. Ayaan Hirsi Ali points out in her recent book,\* NOMAD\*, which is even better than her previous book _INFIDEL_, that in western education, the student is primarily taught HOW to think, but in Islamic education you are taught WHAT to think. It’s okay, people! I take it all back! **Valteron** has _read a book_. **Two** books, even. Which makes him an expert on Islam, over anything anyone else has to say on the subject. When will someone teach you how to think, **Valteron**? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/326 "2010-07-05T10:30:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > As Winston Churchill said, an appeaser is someone who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. Winston Churchill also said this - > [@](#): > > I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place. I’d be more careful who you use to support your views. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/327 "2010-07-05T12:43:15Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Winston Churchill also said this It’s irrelevant anyway - nobody here is “appeasing” anyone. It is not appeasement to declare that in fact a rather substantial percentage of Muslims are not planning on killing anyone and especially not **Valteron**. He may give \*himself \*an aneurysm, but there’s nothing we can do about that. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/328 "2010-07-05T12:46:48Z")
My only point was, if you are going to shore up your arguments with the words of someone famous, don’t use a bulldog-faced, racist fuck like Churchill’s. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/329 "2010-07-05T19:25:46Z")
Perhaps better still, don’t use anyone else’s words to shore up your argument. Pretty much everyone has some objectionable point to them. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/330 "2010-07-05T20:38:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But first things first: sorry, **eleanorigby** , but I’m very married, complete with irrepressible two-year-old daughter. Being landed gentry would be nice but I’m an American ex-pat who has been here for 14 years and I’m just lucky they haven’t deported me yet. I shall regretfully decline the flirtation, although if I’d known that women go for a good rant I would have tried this ages ago. Another dream dashed. I’m crestfallen. Perhaps you could put it aside and use the info for later. Congrats on your little girl. > [@](#): > > I understand the course of your reasoning here but **Magellan** is being pilloried for suggesting that we need to be “wary” without committing to any statement of how this wariness should manifest itself nor how he envisions us identifying specific individuals to be wary of, and in those unmentioned details lie a lot of devils. It’s all very well to say “We should be afraid of scary people” but potential actions deriving from that statement cover a very wide range of actions from simply feeling mild anxiety occasionally to organising a police state and requiring everyone to carry identification papers. Without further context, the statement is so broad as to be meaningless. > Look at the debate over the Arizona immigration law. Very few people want illegal immigrants to escape any punishment for entering the US state illegally - what the kerfuffle is about is the potential it provides for the police to harass anyone looking vaguely Mexican and to require even legal US citizens to carry proof of citizenship on them when out in public. Now, the police may not be so extreme in their behavior and may in fact be sensibly circumspect in application, but I consider the best measure of a law the extent to which it can be abused. Similarly, if we start requiring all Muslims to endure special scrutiny purely for being Muslims, we are already stepping onto the slippery slope of treating them all as “others”. That way lies internment camps. Exactly. > [@](#): > > Someone (I believe it was **wmfellows** ) pointed out several pages back that the thing to take away from attacks by Islamic radicals is not that Muslims are dangerous but that radicals are dangerous. And for that you must monitor not faith nor faces but behaviors and actions. Painting the entire Muslim community everywhere as potential terrorists is not the answer and ostensibly muddies the waters of appropriate security supervision. Eternal vigilance, not stereotyping, is the price of freedom. I agree. I don’t see that protesting against racial profiling (or ethnic or religious) is being a liberal apologist or not keeping American safe (and what does that even mean? There will always be people who want to take down governments or established order.) Muslims seem to be the Communists of our day to some people. There is also this, which no one here (in particularly **magellan** ) seems to be willing to provide: by what criteria are these dangerous-type Muslims to be identified? And someone please show me where it is ONLY Muslims that want to harm America (or EU etc). It’s more that destroyers use Islam as a beard for their evil. An important distinction, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it escapes a few here. [QUOTE=magellan01] Your intent aside, you propagated something that was 1) wrong and 2) led you to make a point that the facts do not support. I corrected you. Your welcome. some people have to spend money on books or college to avail themselves of such facts. I gifted you with them. Such is my great magnanimity. As far as pointing out that one cannot at first blush identify a radical Muslim from a peace loving Muslim, It is my turn to thank you. That is the foundation of everything I’ve been saying. Because if we could discern between the two groups, I would not be of the mind that we should be wary of the whole lot. Thanks for reinforcing that point. [/QUOTE] Your idea of “correction” seems a bit off to me. It’s “you’re” not “your”, welcome, btw. Just being magnanimous back at you. So you admit that you cannot discern the radicalized Muslim from the peaceful, law abiding one. And yet your solution is to treat them all as potential criminals. To use terms you may be familiar with: that’ll win some hearts and minds right there. (That was sarcasm. I make a point to delineate it because you seem–at least in this thread–to lack a sense of perspective and humor). ---
**Author:** ![Properties\_of\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Properties\_of\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Properties_of_Iron)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/331 "2010-07-05T21:20:08Z")
I will note that I can not, at first blush, identify which L-containing users discriminate based upon religion, so I must, once again, be wary of all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/332 "2010-07-05T21:39:27Z")
Should all Catholics be looked upon as potential sexual predators because of the child molestation scandals? No? And if not, then I find it hard to justify looking at all Muslims as potential terrorists, given that Catholicism is a whole lot more centralized, standardized and unified. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/333 "2010-07-06T02:19:57Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > > [@eleanorigby](#): > > > > And he has conveniently overlooked what the USA did to Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor (and oddly we didn’t do that German-Americans…). > > [Oh, really?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_American_internment) > > > [@](#): > > > > A total of 11,507 people of German ancestry were interned during the war, accounting for 36% of the total internments under the Justice Department’s Enemy Alien Control Program.[10] Such internments began with the detention of 1,260 Germans shortly after the attack on Pearl Harbor.[11] Of the 254 persons evicted from coastal areas, the majority were German.[12] > > Shall we check off one more instance of ignorance fought? Or were you alluding to something else we did to Japanese-Americans after the attack on Pearl Harbor that we didn’t do to German-Americans. Leaving aside, for now, the little fact that the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and the Germans didn’t. Looks very much like ignorance promulgated, to me. People of German (and Italian and Bulgarian) ancestry were treated very differently than Japanese. In the case of the Europeans, foreign nationals were investigated, one at a time, by the FBI and, if deemed a threat, were interned. Depending on the individual situation, a person might or might not be detained during the investigation. (A number of U.S. citizens were also initially interned, based on marital relations with or parenthood by the foreign nationals.) Those of Japanese ancestry were rounded up without any effort to actually investigate their loyalty or actions and were all summarily placed in camps regardless of citizenship. Pretending that the “same thing” happened to Germans and Japanese is simply promoting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/334 "2010-07-06T02:28:19Z")
But you’ll agree that promoting ignorance is consistent with his world view. Even IF the Germans were treated the same way as the Japanese, that wouldn’t excuse or justify treating Muslims the same way. I know you know this, but it bears repeating for the more concrete operational among us. It wasn’t ok when we did to the Native Americans, the Japanese or the Communists, and it’s not ok to do it now. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/335 "2010-07-06T04:03:07Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Looks very much like ignorance promulgated, to me. > > People of German (and Italian and Bulgarian) ancestry were treated very differently than Japanese. > > In the case of the Europeans, foreign nationals were investigated, one at a time, by the FBI and, if deemed a threat, were interned. Depending on the individual situation, a person might or might not be detained during the investigation. (A number of U.S. citizens were also initially interned, based on marital relations with or parenthood by the foreign nationals.) Those of Japanese ancestry were rounded up without any effort to actually investigate their loyalty or actions and were all summarily placed in camps regardless of citizenship. > > Pretending that the “same thing” happened to Germans and Japanese is simply promoting ignorance. It all depends how you define the words you put in quotes, doesn’t it? If you define them as “being interned”, yesm the same thing happened. Did they go through the same process? No they didn’t. And no one said they did. **elanorigby** was under the impression that only the Japanese were interned (which is how I took her post, anyway, and she didn’t correct that impression). I put an an end to that bit of ignorance with a couple of sentences. Your imputing that I said that they went through the same process, as well. Nope, didn’t say it. Because I know that’s not the case. At the very least, the sheer numbers of Germans on the east coast made treating them the same as the Japanese (even if the desire to do so was there) quite impractical. So, you were wrong about my promulgating ignorance, except in those who imagined me saying the same things that you imagined. On the bright side you’ve helped further fight **elanorigby’s** ignorance. I’m sure she appreciates it. As much I appreciate the assistance. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/336 "2010-07-06T04:06:18Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Even IF the Germans were treated the same way as the Japanese, that wouldn’t excuse or justify treating Muslims the same way. Who said it would? > [@eleanorigby](#): > > It wasn’t ok when we did to the Native Americans, the Japanese or the Communists, and it’s not ok to do it now. Who said it was? If you think the answer is me in either case, show where I did. As far as I recall I’ve been arguing for extra wariness, and have been mum on any steps that should be taken. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/337 "2010-07-06T04:13:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That makes sense. So, it’s possible to go either way, depending on the severity of the threat, or the active potential for the threat to be carried out, among other things. Yes. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But you haven’t shown that Muslims don’t fall into the ten fingered person situation. Nor have you shown that other groups do fall into it (so that it makes sense not only to treat Muslims warily, but to treat them _relatively_ more warily). I disagree. We have identified a threat: that some Muslims want to kill Americans (as evidenced by the list earlier). It makes sense that we would try to prevent that group (those who want to kill, or abet in the killing of, Americans) from further success. So right off the bat, we can narrow our scope from the 300,000+ million people in the U.S. and concentrate on about 2.5 million. Sounds like a very effective first step, if you ask me. You’ve cut the threat to less than 1% of the population. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Here I think you’re assuming the worst of me. Well, I apologize for that. I perhaps did impute motive to where there wasn’t any. But rest assured, **Rev** , even the worst I might think of you is something admirable. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m comparing suicide bombings to the Shock and Awe campaign, and even then only obliquely by calling both terrorism. Military bombing, when it is carried out with only military casualties, is one thing. Military bombing with unfortunate civilian collateral damage is another thing - but still not terrorism. Military bombing and other attacks designed to overwhelm not just armed opponents but civilians and civilian structural support with, well, shock and awe, seems pretty much like terrorism to me. And again, I think you really need to look an intent. What is the _intent_ of Powell’s Shock and Awe Doctrine? It is to show the military and political leadership of a country that the military might of the U.S. cannot be withstood, so you best give up pronto. It’s intent is not to kill innocent civilians. If it were, schools and hospitals and markets would be the actual targets—and easy ones at that. Not only are they not the targets, considerable steps are taken to accomplish “Shock and Awe” while _minimizing_ the deaths of innocents. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > And i’m not sure how, as an “invented phrase”, “deliberate killing of civilians” is vastly different morally from “kill women and children”. I do not include by that collateral damage, that being not deliberate but incidental. My mistake then. I misread your intent. 😉 > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > So? We have a number - a much more vast number - of incidents in which Americans were killed by ten fingered people. The number of Americans killed by Muslims is dwarfed hugely by that number. If that number is irrelevant - as I would agree - then your point here simply is not enough. You can’t just point to incidents, you have to show that they are both representative and helpful. I look at the threat identified by the list offered earlier. I conclude that I would like those things to be stopped or minimized. To do so, I wonder if there is a pattern. I see a pattern in that all were committed by Muslim radicals. I cannot identify that group specifically, so I see if there is a group I can identify. There is, because in the U.S., Muslims represent less than 1% of the population. I see that as a great starting point for scrutiny. As I look more closely, I can focus more effectively (after I become Emperor). ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/338 "2010-07-06T04:19:20Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > And someone please show me where it is ONLY Muslims that want to harm America (or EU etc). What does the presence of an additional threat have to do with anything? Just because you have flood insurance on your home doesn’t mean you don’t need fire insurance. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > Your idea of “correction” seems a bit off to me. It’s “you’re” not “your”, welcome, btw. It was just a typo, but much appreciated. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/339 "2010-07-06T04:36:13Z")
> [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > I expect they would, because they are aware that they have a strong military force that will do their fighting for them. Suicide bombings are used partly for their pyschological impact (seems to be working on you!) and partly as it’s an economical way of fighting an enemy much larger and better armed than you. If they were in the underdog position? Perhaps a change of perspective may change attitudes. I know why they’re used. That doesn’t mean they are justifiable. But if if they are, it does not put them on the same moral footing as collateral damage. > [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > In terms of whether I forgive you or not? Because I’m still without my leg all the same. The people on the ground who have lost loved ones don’t factor into the equation that the US tried not to hit more of them before deciding how angry they are. And as far as the bombers are concerned, I see that they are also trying to achieve a military advantage too, and are going for an easy target. We’re talking about intent. this is something the law recognizes and takes into account. Not all bad acts are morally equivalent. > [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > So it’s the suicide bombing bit that bothers you, not the killing of civilians? If they did this via a missile would that be better? The US used Shock and Awe in an attempt to terrorize the population, which was as Rumsfeld said "the force necessary to prevail, plus some’‘, and he rejected "promising … not to permit collateral damage.’’ I think they we need to be willing to draw a line in the sand and say that driving a truck load of explosives into a grammar school playground and killing and maiming little kids is UNACCEPTABLE. And if you do that, you will be viewed for the barbaric animals you are. Period. I can’t believe that you and others are not willing to draw that line. That doesn’t make U.S. bombing campaigns wine and roses, but the two are not morally equivalent, due to intent. > [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > Look, I agree that there is a difference - I agree that the school is not a legitimate target. Excellent. > [@Girl\_From\_Mars](#): > > I don’t approve (odd word) of suicide bombings, but I also appreciate that sometimes it’s the only weapon they have, and it is very effective. As someone who was on the Tube on the morning of July 7th I just don’t share your fear that every Muslim carries the potential for significant risk to me, and that they are a possible suicide bomber. I am more concerned about actual risks rather than remote possibilities. Being raped as I walk home at night, being robbed in my home, someone molesting my baby daughter - and anyone may be the perpetrator here - not just Muslim. Why not just be wary of situations, rather than of individuals? Why is it one or the other? You should be afraid to walk down an alley at night in a bad part of town. And you should be careful who you leave your baby daughter with. You should try to prevent both you being raped and her being molested. I would think you’d prefer if neither of you were blown up, as well. Muslim radicals are the group who would want to achieve that. (In the U.S., any way.) They’ve already tried to blow people up. They’ve already succeeded. Radical Islam has stated that they are planning further attacks. Now, we can’t identify who the radical Muslims are. But it would be great if we could identify them, right? Well, we do know that they will be a subset of Muslims. So we start there. By the way, love your user name. 'Nite, all. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/340 "2010-07-06T08:58:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …Why is it one or the other? You should be afraid to walk down an alley at night in a bad part of town. And you should be careful who you leave your baby daughter with. You should try to prevent both you being raped and her being molested. I would think you’d prefer if neither of you were blown up, as well. Muslim radicals are the group who would want to achieve that. (In the U.S., any way.) They’ve already tried to blow people up. They’ve already succeeded. Radical Islam has stated that they are planning further attacks. Now, we can’t identify who the radical Muslims are. But it would be great if we could identify them, right? Well, we do know that they will be a subset of Muslims. So we start there. > > By the way, love your user name. > 'Nite, all. Personally, I’m concerned that **magellan01** is apparently living in America. But I don’t know exactly where. I would prefer to know where somebody who has that sort of malignant idiocy in his brain hangs out. So I can know not to go there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=18)