# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/441 "2010-07-08T10:07:02Z")
Man, this thread moves fast. > [@Valteron](#): > > I have NOT defeated my own argument with my example of checking out young black Jamaican males who arrive in Canada to make sure they are not planning to immigrate illegally. I have reinforced the point. Customs officers, without any racism at all, automatically know that every flight from Jamaica could contain potential illegal immigrants, and that the group that bears watching is black persons on a flight from a poor country like Jamaica and specifically younder males. But females in their 40s have been known to immigrate illegally. > > We are simply saying that we need to be careful with that group. And that we need to be careful with Chinese Canadians, especially older ones, who are returning from a visit to China because they may be bringing back folk medicines that contravene our drug laws or species protection laws. > > What YOU and the other PCs seem to assume is that Magellan and I are demanding that anyone who is a Muslim be pulled out of line, cuffed, thrown to the ground, and stomped on just in case he is a terrorist. > > What we are saying is “use your fucking head”. And moderate American Muslims who wish to build a combined cultural center/mosque in downtown Manhattan - were you using your fucking head when you decided that they posed some sort of dire threat to Mom, apple pie and the American way? You are still comparing small Red Delicious apples grown in New England last year with the set of all oranges everywhere, and you’re don’t even seem to be aware you’re doing it. Sure, you haven’t specifically said that Muslims should all be grabbed and locked up - but you’ve been awfully busy trying to convince us that they’re all a threat. And as much fun as it is to dismiss my arguments as being “PC”, there’s nothing PC about objecting to your inciting hatred against a group, the vast majority of which _have done nothing wrong_. > [@](#): > > Did you know that the American Revolution, which as I understand suceeded after eight long years of war, was probably supported by only a minority of the people in the 13 colonies at the time? You could say the same thing about the Iraq War. The government of the time wanted it. Are you worried that the Muslims are going to become a large enough bloc to overthrow the Constitution, growing even faster than the heavily Catholic Hispanic population? > [@](#): > > Did you know that Hitler and the Nazis never got more than 38% of the vote in a free election and still came to power? Did you know that Hitler came to power in a large part by scapegoating an unpopular ethnic minority? Misleading analogies are fun. It’s all smoke and wharrgarbl with you. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/442 "2010-07-08T14:53:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Believing that Islam is bad or that you can’t trust Muslims isn’t racism. It might be religious bigotry, but it’s not racism. > [@Valteron](#): > > Islam is a race? That is new to me. Please do try to keep up. We’ve been over this again and again. I’m saying that they’re using their hatred of “Islam” and “Muslims” \*as a mask for \*their racism. Because in their head, Muslims, especially dangerous extremists, are Brown People from Over There who Aren’t Like Us. Which is why \*they \*deserve to be freaked out about (without any mention of how we’re supposed to identify them) as opposed to, say, all Catholic priests. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/443 "2010-07-08T16:13:17Z")
I told you how to identify them. You restrict them to certain areas and make them wear distinctive clothing. People have done that to religious or other non-distinquishable minorities they wanted to discriminate against for quite a while. And, even if arguendo, the reason they hate Muslims is because Muslims are “Brown People From Over There who Aren’t Like Us”, that’s not necessarily racism either, unless you can show that the reason they don’t like them is because they’re Brown, rather than just being People From Over There who Aren’t Like Us. If it’s the latter, than the people are just xenophobes. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/444 "2010-07-08T16:36:16Z")
I can’t dig into their slimy little minds to \*prove \*anything–I can only offer conjecture. And the main difference seems to be that these aren’t (to them) Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/445 "2010-07-08T16:52:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I told you how to identify them. You restrict them to certain areas and make them wear distinctive clothing. People have done that to religious or other non-distinquishable minorities they wanted to discriminate against for quite a while. > > And, even if arguendo, the reason they hate Muslims is because Muslims are “Brown People From Over There who Aren’t Like Us”, that’s not necessarily racism either, unless you can show that the reason they don’t like them is because they’re Brown, rather than just being People From Over There who Aren’t Like Us. If it’s the latter, than the people are just xenophobes. Well, we’ve fought in _one_ war on the side of a Muslim community in the last fifty years, and two against them. Guess what color the first lot were? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/446 "2010-07-08T17:12:34Z")
More than that. In 1983, we paticipated in the Multinational Force in Lebanon, which was against certain Muslim groups, but on the side of others. There was Operation Desert Storm, which was against an Arab Muslim country (Iraq), but to defend another Arab Muslim country (Saudi Arabia), and liberate yet another (Kuwait). We sent troops into Somalia, which is a black Muslim country, and while we fought against warlord militias, we had humanitarian goals in mind. We bombed targets in Bosnia to help the Bosniaks, who are white Muslims, and Serbia, to help the Kosovars, who are also white Muslims. In 2001, we invaded Afghanistan, fighting against one group of non white Muslims (the Taliban), on behalf of another (the Northern Alliance). And in 2003, we invaded Iraq, which is an Arab Muslim country. So, I don’t know if it is as simple as you make it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/447 "2010-07-08T19:30:35Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > We bombed targets in Bosnia to help the Bosniaks, who are white Muslims, and Serbia, to help the Kosovars, who are also white Muslims. Right; this is the only example of American military action on behalf of Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/448 "2010-07-08T22:13:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Right; this is the only example of American military action on behalf of Muslims. And Operation Desert Shield/Desert Storm, and Operation Restore Hope in Somalia, and Operation Provide Comfort/Northern Watch (to protect the Kurds in Northern Iraq), and even though the primary goal has been to get Al Qaeda and disrupt terrorist groups, Operation Enduring Freedom, and Operation Earnest Will (protecting Kuwaiti tankers during the Iran-Iraq War), and Operation Unified Assistance (to provide aid to tsunami victims.) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/449 "2010-07-09T00:49:17Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Are you unaware that the person who first spotted and reported the vehicle was also a Muslim (and an immigrant one to boot)? Should we be wary of him? No. We have knowledge of him and his actions. Why would one ignore that information? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/450 "2010-07-09T01:18:52Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Well, I have to say, I find myself confused. I was taking your point to be that we should be more wary of Muslims as an end in and of itself, even when we then go further with differentiation. Nope. Im having a hard time seeing where the confusion comes from. I’ve been arguing that it would be wise for us to wary of Muslims, in general. as a first pass, where the only thing we know about them is their Muslimness. As we learn more, we can move some into the “likely not a threat category” and others into the “let’s learn more about him” category. [/QUOTE] > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I agree it would need to be described as just that - i’d say the issue to be careful of is of emotive words. “Terrorism” would likely be less agreed to than the mentioning of a specific terroristic act, same with suicide bombing (though obviously that describes an act too). It’s like “conspiracy theorist”; you’ll find few people who will agree they are one, but quite a few more who hold views that might be considered conspiracy theorists. Look, we can create euphemisms to ratchet down any bad act. And there are no doubt instances where it is helpful to do so. But there are other times to ca the thing what it is. What interest is served in ratcheting down the emotive elements of the description of those who strap bombs on themselves and blow up five-year-old kids. None. In fact, we should ratchet UP the language as much as we can to send the signal that that behavior is unacceptable, regardless of the motivation. Same with that idiot who was arguing on these boards why we should not be so critical of him for wanting to have sex with kids about toddler age. Similarly, we should describe the sick barbarism of some of the Sharia laws for what they are. Trying to excuse the behavior is unhelpful in the extreme. People try to take the ugly sting out of calling it what it is by pointing to the bible, particularly the old testament, as if we have Christians arguing to do some of the things described. To whatever degree one may be able to draw equivalence by comparing passages, when you look to the application in the here and now, there is zero. What, Christian sects would like to do something as barbaric as bury a woman up to her neck and stone her to death? Or, and this is my favorite, adjudicate that the family of a teenage girl who was dishonored by her walking home from school with a boy who was not her relative shall be able to re-instill their honor by having the girl’s father, brothers, and uncles rape…the boy she was walking with’s sister!!! We need to call these people on behavior so sick that it gives “barbarism” a bad name. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Radical in any way. Radicalness in and of itself seems pretty indicative of threats. The most a radical Yankee fan might do is get drunk and beat up an opposing fan, but i’d say that it is all strains of radicalness that are likely to cause problems. We’re looking to protect ourselves from _all_ attacks, not just those arising from one area. I mean, we could immediately get every police officer in our respective countries to focus solely on stopping potential Islamic terrorism, and then society would break down within the week. It’s an extreme example, obviously, but stopping a threat from one source doesn’t mean we should neglect others. You want to take it on a proportional basis. And on that basis, “radical” strikes me as much more useful. Of course, I don’t have numbers, but you don’t seem to either. **Rev** , you’re killing me here. All this dancing around you want to do as to simply not look at their Muslimness. You will need to do that. Even if you look at radicalism first, you then need to see where in the Venn diagram the world of radicals overlaps with the world of Muslims. The fact is that terrorism comes from Muslims. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/451 "2010-07-09T01:27:54Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Not in theory. But in practice, the only real way to “be more wary of Muslims” is by sight. Who’s going to be scrutinized more closely if such a thing becomes the norm? Arabs and central Asians. Not Indonesians. Not Malaysians. (Hell, I doubt 2 Americans in 10 even KNOWS that Indonesia and Malaysia are Muslim countries!) Arabs and central Asians. Doesn’t matter if they’re actually Muslim or not. That Pakistani Hindu? Watched. That Lebanese Druze? Watched. That Palestinian Christian? Watched. That Sefardi Israeli? Watched. > > That IS racism. But you’re assuming that one looks to skin color. How about, for instance, if we just started with a list of those attending mosques? I also said earlier in the thread that I think we should be more wary of Americans (all colors) who convert to Islam in the past 5 years or so than those who were born into it. So, white Pennsylvanian who converted to Islam in 2007 should be viewed, at first blush, as being more of a potential threat than a brown-skinned life-long Muslim who grew up in the same town. No. It’s only racism if you craft it to be about raciism. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/452 "2010-07-09T12:46:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But you’re assuming that one looks to skin color. How about, for instance, if we just started with a list of those attending mosques? > > I also said earlier in the thread that I think we should be more wary of Americans (all colors) who convert to Islam in the past 5 years or so than those who were born into it. So, white Pennsylvanian who converted to Islam in 2007 should be viewed, at first blush, as being more of a potential threat than a brown-skinned life-long Muslim who grew up in the same town. > > No. It’s only racism if you craft it to be about raciism. Who is this “we” you keep mentioning? Do you think you’re likely to get recruits for your little Crusade here? **Valteron** is on your side, but he’s Up North Somewhere. And **Perciful** has apparently wandered off & gotten lost. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/453 "2010-07-09T13:01:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But you’re assuming that one looks to skin color. How about, for instance, if we just started with a list of those attending mosques? And then what? We’ve got a little list (_he’s got a little list_) - what do we do with it that isn’t going to fall afoul of the First Amendment at some point? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/454 "2010-07-09T13:17:57Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And then what? We’ve got a little list (_he’s got a little list_) - what do we do with it that isn’t going to fall afoul of the First Amendment at some point? Koko: …Then the idiot who praises, with enthusiastic tone, All centuries but this, and every country but his own;… Chorus: He’s got 'em on the list — he’s got 'em on the list; And they’ll none of 'em be missed — they’ll none of 'em be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/455 "2010-07-09T14:46:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But you’re assuming that one looks to skin color. How about, for instance, if we just started with a list of those attending mosques? Sooooo… I should ask all my local mosques for lists of their members, and then look up photos of all those people, and memorize them? What about the “Muslim” terrorists who are smart enough to, y’know, NOT ATTEND A MOSQUE because it might make them more obvious suspects? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/456 "2010-07-09T14:50:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Sooooo… I should ask all my local mosques for lists of their members, and then look up photos of all those people, and memorize them? > > What about the “Muslim” terrorists who are smart enough to, y’know, NOT ATTEND A MOSQUE because it might make them more obvious suspects? My GOD, they’re DEVIOUS! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/457 "2010-07-09T18:25:44Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And then what? We’ve got a little list (_he’s got a little list_) - what do we do with it that isn’t going to fall afoul of the First Amendment at some point? Just, you know, be wary. In general. Not wary -of- anything, just wary. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/458 "2010-07-09T18:42:52Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Who is this “we” you keep mentioning? Do you think you’re likely to get recruits for your little Crusade here? **Valteron** is on your side, but he’s Up North Somewhere. And **Perciful** has apparently wandered off & gotten lost. The “we” is referring to Americans who think that it is more important to prevent barbarians from killing more of us than it is to adhere to some fantastical, self-defeating, Kumbaya political correctness. In other words, the sane ones. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/459 "2010-07-09T18:44:59Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Just, you know, be wary. In general. Not wary -of- anything, just wary. _ **I’m just asking questions, man!** _ ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/460 "2010-07-09T18:46:42Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about, for instance, if we just started with a list of those attending mosques? And if the people in charge of the mosques decline to hand over their membership lists, what do you do then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=24)