# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/461 "2010-07-09T18:47:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The “we” is referring to Americans who think that it is more important to prevent barbarians from killing more of us than it is to adhere to some fantastical, self-defeating, Kumbaya political correctness. > > In other words, the sane ones. So the rest of us have noticed that you are spending an awful lot of time on minutiae and apparently completely avoiding the practical idiocy of your ideas–namely, as amply discussed a few posts above, what is your heuristic by which “me”, as a self-respecting American who wants to protect myself and my family, can determine who to be wary of. No magic, please, tell me how I PERSONALLY am supposed to detect Muslims in order to be wary of them. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/462 "2010-07-09T18:51:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The “we” is referring to Americans who think that it is more important to prevent barbarians from killing more of us than it is to adhere to some fantastical, self-defeating, Kumbaya political correctness. > > In other words, the sane ones. Why do you constantly refer to not caring if you fear Muslims or not as ‘political correctness’? I, for one, am not telling you to be nice and respect Muslims. I really don’t care what you think about Muslims or anyone else. Buy a gunnie-wunnie and build a Muslim-proof compound if you like. But why should your cowardice inconvenience anyone else? And why aren’t you arguing on behalf of being wary of Christians, who are responsible for most of the awful things Americans do to themselves and others? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/463 "2010-07-09T18:54:40Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So the rest of us have noticed that you are spending an awful lot of time on minutiae and apparently completely avoiding the practical idiocy of your ideas–namely, as amply discussed a few posts above, what is your heuristic by which “me”, as a self-respecting American who wants to protect myself and my family, can determine who to be wary of. No magic, please, tell me how I PERSONALLY am supposed to detect Muslims in order to be wary of them. I have been referring to what LE should be doing, in order to identify threats before they are turned into dead bodies. I’m not afraid to play basketball with Muslims, or go have dinner or a beer with them afterwards. As I do. The threat is not that some Muslim walking down the street will stab me. It’s that some are planning some future mayhem on a grand scale. Let me ask you this: how much of what _I’ve actually said_ in this thread that you seem to be uncomfortable with would you, in retrospect, allow, if it could have avoided 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/464 "2010-07-09T18:59:01Z")
Double post. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/465 "2010-07-09T18:59:12Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > Why do you constantly refer to not caring if you fear Muslims or not as ‘political correctness’? I, for one, am not telling you to be nice and respect Muslims. I really don’t care what you think about Muslims or anyone else. Buy a gunnie-wunnie and build a Muslim-proof compound if you like. But why should your cowardice inconvenience anyone else? > > And why aren’t you arguing on behalf of being wary of Christians, who are responsible for most of the awful things Americans do to themselves and others? Political correctness is the thing that prevents some people from taking steps that will make us safer. The threat from radical Islam toward Americans is real. It makes sense to attempt to identify those who wish to cause us harm by looking at the larger set, Muslims, and then try to narrow the scope. This is so basic, so common-sensical, so logical, so benign, it astounds me that there is so much push back. Even here. But then, no one has been able to point to any actual thing I’ve said that is racist, blah, blah, blah. It seems that the general proposition strikes a nerve, so they read words not on the page. Nothing new around here, really. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/466 "2010-07-09T19:04:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Political correctness is the thing that prevents some people from taking steps that will make us safer. And pants-wetting cowardice is the thing that causes some people to sacrifice their freedom and that of others for the illusion of safety. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/467 "2010-07-09T19:19:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let me ask you this: how much of what _I’ve actually said_ in this thread that you seem to be uncomfortable with would you, in retrospect, allow, if it could have avoided 9/11? Does it matter that the intelligence agencies had acquired information that might have prevented 9/11 if it was handled right without adopting your suggestions? The problem pre-9/11 was compartmentalization and poor sharing of information rather than being insufficiently “wary” of Muslims. For that matter, why do you think things would have been better pre-9/11 if the intelligence agencies were in the middle of an analysis of every single US mosque on top of everything else they were doing? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/468 "2010-07-09T19:24:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The “we” is referring to Americans who think that it is more important to prevent barbarians from killing more of us than it is to adhere to some fantastical, self-defeating, Kumbaya political correctness. Personally, I’d rather just **ADHERE TO THE CONSTITUTION OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY I LIVE IN** , you disgusting racist who’s too cowardly to even come out and admit what a scumbag you are. And when I say _scumbag_, please envision that I’m using it in the original sense of _a used condom_. If you don’t like it, move to North Korea, where you’ll probably find people in power more apt to appreciate your ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/469 "2010-07-09T19:28:22Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > And pants-wetting cowardice is the thing that causes some people to sacrifice their freedom and that of others for the illusion of safety. I thought they hated our freedom? I’m so confused. Actually **Bosstone** , all kidding aside, well said. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/470 "2010-07-09T19:54:19Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I have been referring to what LE should be doing, in order to identify threats before they are turned into dead bodies. I’m not afraid to play basketball with Muslims, or go have dinner or a beer with them afterwards. As I do. The threat is not that some Muslim walking down the street will stab me. It’s that some are planning some future mayhem on a grand scale. Let me ask you this: how much of what _I’ve actually said_ in this thread that you seem to be uncomfortable with would you, in retrospect, allow, if it could have avoided 9/11? Zero. I would not be comfortable with any of it. I’d rather have a solid, unbreakable 1st Amendment for my children and their children, even if I was taped to the front of one of those planes on 9/11. There is no level of official increased scrutiny of any particular religion that I am prepared to accept. Basically, fuck your “wary” with a sharp stick. “They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”, as the man said. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/471 "2010-07-09T20:15:00Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Nope. Im having a hard time seeing where the confusion comes from. I’ve been arguing that it would be wise for us to wary of Muslims, in general. as a first pass, where the only thing we know about them is their Muslimness. As we learn more, we can move some into the “likely not a threat category” and others into the “let’s learn more about him” category. Phrased in those terms, would it not then be correct to say that it would be wise for you to be wary of Americans, in general, as a first pass, where the only thing we know about them in their Americanship? > [@](#): > > Look, we can create euphemisms to ratchet down any bad act. And there are no doubt instances where it is helpful to do so. It’s not really the creation of euphemisms, but the avoidance of anti-euphamisms, for which there’s probably a word but i’m not sure what it is. And I think this is an instance where it’s helpful. Possibly it’s my psych degree talking, but when you want to look at people’s opinions, you have to be damn careful you don’t lead them with emotive language (it was the subject of my dissertation, in fact). That doesn’t mean remove all emotion entirely - i’m not talking about changing “killing innocents” into “the removal of non-military targets” or something. I’m talking about trying to avoid potentially misleading results. If I go out and conduct a study to find out how many conspiracy theorists there are in the country, and my question is “Are you a conspiracy theorist?” i’m not going to get particulaly useful results, because people don’t like that term being applied to them or their beliefs. If you change the question to whether they hold a particular view, then you might get a better response. And it is the view that’s what you’re looking at, not the label. If you go out and ask people whether they support terrorism, you’ll get a lot of no’s, because it’s an emotive word. If you go out and ask people whether they support specific acts you could call terroristic without using that word, you’ll probably get better results, because while the emotive potential of the act remains, the added emotive aspect of the label in particular doesn’t. And we’re not interested, after all, in whether people support the label; we want to know whether they support the act. That’s kind of the important thing. We want an honest and accurate assessment. On occasions, certainly, we want to ratchet up the emotion. But not when we’re trying to find out something. > [@](#): > > **Rev** , you’re killing me here. All this dancing around you want to do as to simply not look at their Muslimness. You will need to do that. Even if you look at radicalism first, you then need to see where in the Venn diagram the world of radicals overlaps with the world of Muslims. The fact is that terrorism comes from Muslims. My point is not to not look at Muslims; my point is that Muslim, in and of itself, is simply not a useful nor actionable nor theoretical standard by which to judge. That, essentially, “it is wise to be wary of all Muslims” is not a wise nor even reasonable thing to say, nor is it particularly helpful. If you want to start there, sure, go ahead, as you will start with many broad categories, but don’t slip in a “suspicion” of the overall group before stepping forth to differentiate further down. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/472 "2010-07-09T21:09:58Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Zero. I would not be comfortable with any of it. I’d rather have a solid, unbreakable 1st Amendment for my children and their children, even if I was taped to the front of one of those planes on 9/11. There is no level of official increased scrutiny of any particular religion that I am prepared to accept. This all kinda presupposes that your children don’t get blown up, now doesn’t it. > [@Zeriel](#): > > Basically, fuck your “wary” with a sharp stick. “They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”, as the man said. What liberty am I suggesting we abandon? Feel free to search the thread and use my own words, as opposed to the ones in your head. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/473 "2010-07-09T21:21:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Political correctness is the thing that prevents some people from taking steps that will make us safer. The threat from radical Islam toward Americans is real. It makes sense to attempt to identify those who wish to cause us harm by looking at the larger set, Muslims, and then try to narrow the scope. This is so basic, so common-sensical, so logical, so benign, it astounds me that there is so much push back. Even here. But then, no one has been able to point to any actual thing I’ve said that is racist, blah, blah, blah. It seems that the general proposition strikes a nerve, so they read words not on the page. Nothing new around here, really. I’ve called you a coward calling for religious persecution, but I haven’t mentioned racism. And you still haven’t explained why you aren’t in favour of ‘looking at’ all Christians then narrowing the scope in order to track down murderers, even though far more Americans die at the hands of one another than at the hands of anyone else. And I really don’t care how benign you consider the persecution you favour. As I said, your fear should inconvenience no one but you. Given the choice between you living in fear and people who have nothing to do with you being hassled by The Man, well, get used to living in fear. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/474 "2010-07-09T21:29:38Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Phrased in those terms, would it not then be correct to say that it would be wise for you to be wary of Americans, in general, as a first pass, where the only thing we know about them in their Americanship? > > … > > My point is not to not look at Muslims; my point is that Muslim, in and of itself, is simply not a useful nor actionable nor theoretical standard by which to judge. That, essentially, “it is wise to be wary of all Muslims” is not a wise nor even reasonable thing to say, nor is it particularly helpful. If you want to start there, sure, go ahead, as you will start with many broad categories, but don’t slip in a “suspicion” of the overall group before stepping forth to differentiate further down. If you’re in America, as I am, trying to protect Americans from a radical Islamic threat, looking at “Americans” is just about as useless as starting with “Earthlings”. Starting with “Muslim” here is not useless. It cuts the pool in one fell swoop from 300 million to 2.5. In what world is a 99% reduction of the suspicion pool not helpful—as a first step? Now let’s say I can reduce the pool by another 99%, to under 25,000, would that not be very helpful? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/475 "2010-07-09T21:36:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What liberty am I suggesting we abandon? [QUOTE=The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution, you racist fucking dickgarage] The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, you racist fucking douchebarge] No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury […] nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law [/QUOTE] And, lest you forget, **you disgust me**. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/476 "2010-07-09T21:40:47Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > I’ve called you a coward calling for religious persecution, but I haven’t mentioned racism. Cite, please, for this “persecution” I’ve called for. Please use my actual quotes. And yes, it is very brave of you to call me a coward on the internets. You seem very tough yourself. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > And you still haven’t explained why you aren’t in favour of ‘looking at’ all Christians then narrowing the scope in order to track down murderers, even though far more Americans die at the hands of one another than at the hands of anyone else. Surely you understand sets and subsets. Not all murderers are Christian, but all barbarians killing Americans in the name of Allah are Muslims. What this thread is about is the threat from radical Islamists. It’s not about trying to stop all individual murders. It’s about trying to prevent another 9/11, or something even grander. If you want to discuss how to best go about stopping ALL murders in the U.S., feel free to begin another thread. > [@The\_Tooth](#): > > And I really don’t care how benign you consider the persecution you favour. As I said, your fear should inconvenience no one but you. Given the choice between you living in fear and people who have nothing to do with you being hassled by The Man, well, get used to living in fear. So, what is the “inconvenience” you’re referring to. Again, feel free to use actual quotes. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/477 "2010-07-09T21:44:59Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > And, lest you forget, **you disgust me**. Wow, you really don’t get this whole debate thing, do you? Well, maybe I’m wrong. If I am, you’ll be able to show quotes of mine that run afoul of each of the two passages you chose to cite. I’ll wait. > [@](#): > > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. > > … > > No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury […] nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/478 "2010-07-09T22:01:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Wow, you really don’t get this whole debate thing, do you? Well, maybe I’m wrong. If I am, you’ll be able to show quotes of mine that run afoul of each of the two passages you chose to cite. > > I’ll wait. We aren’t in Great Debates, idiot. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/479 "2010-07-09T22:08:56Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > We aren’t in Great Debates, idiot. Whew! Then it’s a good thing I didn’t say we were. Tell me, is it possible for you or others to have a debate on the SDMB without big type across the top that says, “Great Debates”? Is it possible for you to have a debate in real life without a two lecterns and a moderator. You persnickety little dummy, you. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/480 "2010-07-09T22:16:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Whew! Then it’s a good thing I didn’t say we were. > > Tell me, is it possible for you or others to have a debate on the SDMB without big type across the top that says, “Great Debates”? Is it possible for you to have a debate in real life without a two lecterns and a moderator. > > You persnickety little dummy, you. For a bigoted coward you do like to throw stones. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=25)