# Help! Evil Muslims are out to get meeeeeee! (For Valteron and Perciful) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2010, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476 "2010-06-25T12:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/161 "2010-06-30T05:21:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Foolproof? Why is this suddenly the metric for public policy? Should we not have gun laws because they will not be 100% effective? Should we not take measures to prevent speeding, drunk driving, tax fraud even though we know that whatever we put in place will not be “foolproof”? This is the same kind of odd thinking that prevents us from building a fence on our southern border…because a 30-foot fence can be breached by a 31-foot ladder. > > Do you insist on foolproof measures in any of these instances? Or any instances involving public policy at all? Ooooh, now we’re talking about public policy! Excellent! As it so happens, I am wrapping up my masters degree in public policy at the moment (I have two classes left, dammit) so I like to think I know a little bit about public policy, although I will admit that I’m more knowledgeable about foreign policy and international development than US domestic policy. Having reviewed the thread, I remain a little unclear on what specific policies you’re advocating for. Could you please specify what policies you’d like to see enacted? Maybe then we can have a constructive discussion about ways to decrease Islamist terrorism in the US and around the world. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/162 "2010-06-30T06:12:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Foolproof? Why is this suddenly the metric for public policy? Because you introduced it in your post under reply, is my guess. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/163 "2010-06-30T06:25:32Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Because you introduced it in your post under reply, is my guess. Technically, **magellan01** used the term “fool-proof” while **Monty** used the term “foolproof”. Totally different. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/164 "2010-06-30T06:28:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You introduced the notion of needing foolproof way to identify “bad” Muslims from “good” Muslims with the only other option to be “wary” of all of them. Yep. Be wary of them all [in the U.S.], as I specifically said in a previous post. > [@tomndebb](#): > > Now you are introducing the aspect of “public policy.” I saw **Monty** as introducing the aspect of public policy, by insisting on “a foolproof method to cull them out”, which, again, I opined in a previous post did not exist. At least, that’s the way I took his post, as I don’t know how an individual can cull out the bad of a group. Perhaps I should have asked him. He can clarify if he’d like. But I can’t imagine he was referring to an individual’s actions. > [@tomndebb](#): > > It is clear that if you do not have a similar public policy to propose for being wary of Christians, you are displaying blatant inconsistency on two separate issues. The two issues are, as you say, are quite separate. For instance, if a small group of people are threat comes from a population that is in the vast majority, then scrutinizing them may not be helpful. But if they belong to a smaller group, where a larger percent of them would be of the dangerous variety, then that can be very helpful. The larger the percent of the group that is dangerous, the more sense it makes to scrutinize the group as a whole. The smaller the percentage, the less sense it makes. A note to others: I’m not going to enter into another debate about the the sense of profiling a group. Anyone that interested in my thoughts on it can do a search. But the paragraph above is a good summation. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/165 "2010-06-30T06:34:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I saw **Monty** as introducing the aspect of public policy, by insisting on “a foolproof method to cull them out”, which, again, I opined in a previous post did not exist. At least, that’s the way I took his post, as I don’t know how an individual can cull out the bad of a group. Perhaps I should have asked him. He can clarify if he’d like. But I can’t imagine he was referring to an individual’s actions. Why don’t you petition the mods to change your user name to **outrageous weasel**? This post of yours is so dishonest, it should be wearing a medal. _You_ advocated treating all members of a group, Muslims, adversely based on what a few members of that group do and I reminded you that there are a few Christians doing evil things. Here’s a reminder for you of your own words: > [@](#): > > but until you have a fool-proof way cull the evil-trying-to-kill-us ones from the peaceful ones, it behooves us—or those of us who would like to not be killed or have those we cared for killed—to be wary of the whole lot. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/166 "2010-06-30T06:41:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why don’t you petition the mods to change your user name to **weasel**? This post of yours is so dishonest, it should be wearing a medal. _You_ advocated treating all members of a group, Muslims, adversely based on what a few members of that group do and I reminded you that there are a few Christians doing evil things. Did I take your post correctly or not? For the record, here is my original statement: > [@](#): > > The point, friend, is that some Muslims DO want to kill us. (And you’d be closer to the front of that line than I.) [alluding to **jayjay’s** being gay] In fact, of the group of people who can be defined as “wanting to kill Americans”, Muslims make up a vast majority.Further refine that group as “those who want to kill us, have killed some of us, and continue to actively try to kill some of us”, it’s pretty much all Muslim. Now, that does not mean that all Muslims want to kill Americans, but until you have a fool-proof way cull the evil-trying-to-kill-us ones from the peaceful ones, it behooves us—or those of us who would like to not be killed or have those we cared for killed—to be wary of the whole lot. So, the whole time I’ve been saying that there is NOT a foolproof method, but you attempted to ascribe that metric to me. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/167 "2010-06-30T07:38:23Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I should have spoilered the country, shouldn’t I? It wasn’t you. Obama spoilered the country by letting all the Muslims in. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/168 "2010-06-30T07:59:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The larger the percent of the group that is dangerous, the more sense it makes to scrutinize the group as a whole. So just to keep me happy so that we have it on the record, and referring to my post earlier, you do advocate extreme wariness of one’s brothers and father, don’t you? They being far and away the most dangerous defined group in anyone’s life. > [@magellan01](#): > > So, the whole time I’ve been saying that there is NOT a foolproof method, but you attempted to ascribe that metric to me. You have totally lost the thread of yourself. You said that there wasn’t a foolproof method of weeding out the bad Muslims so we should be wary of them all. When someone said that on that basis, you should be wary of Christians, you then suggested foolproofness wasn’t an appropriate metric. In short, you haven’t become any less of a weasel since the last time I was silly enough to debate you. ---
**Author:** ![Properties\_of\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7cd45c/32.png) [@Properties\_of\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Properties_of_Iron)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/169 "2010-06-30T08:02:19Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why don’t you petition the mods to change your user name to **outrageous weasel**? This post of yours is so dishonest, it should be wearing a medal. _You_ advocated treating all members of a group, Muslims, adversely based on what a few members of that group do and I reminded you that there are a few Christians doing evil things. > > Here’s a reminder for you of your own words: Did you edit your post just to add outrageous? If so, I love you. If not, I only majorly like you for your work in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/170 "2010-06-30T08:30:31Z")
**Properties of Iron** : Yes. I had to change the suggested username as there already is a poster going by **weasel**. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/171 "2010-06-30T09:38:08Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The two issues are, as you say, are quite separate. For instance, if a small group of people are threat comes from a population that is in the vast majority, then scrutinizing them may not be helpful. But if they belong to a smaller group, where a larger percent of them would be of the dangerous variety, then that can be very helpful. The larger the percent of the group that is dangerous, the more sense it makes to scrutinize the group as a whole. The smaller the percentage, the less sense it makes. Fair point. So all that remains is for you to show that the percentage of Muslims in the US that is “dangerous” is large enough to be even remotely significant. I mean, if you’re just speaking about some hypothetical group here and not about Muslims specifically, we can safely ignore your entire post as irrelevant twaddle. And if you \*are \*talking about Muslims, put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/172 "2010-06-30T10:10:26Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The two issues are, as you say, are quite separate. For instance, if a small group of people are threat comes from a population that is in the vast majority, then scrutinizing them may not be helpful. But if they belong to a smaller group, where a larger percent of them would be of the dangerous variety, then that can be very helpful. Are…you under the impression that Muslims are some tiny fringe group? One and a half billion people is not exactly a “smaller group”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/173 "2010-06-30T10:24:35Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Are…you under the impression that Muslims are some tiny fringe group? > > One and a half billion people is not exactly a “smaller group”. I think he meant specifically the ones in the US. The [Wiki site](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_the_United_States#Demographics)sets that amount at somewhere between 1.3 million and 7 million depending on who’s doing the counting. I’m not sure how many of those have to have links to terrorism in order to be statistically significant enough to justify treating the entire population with suspicion. 200,000? 15,000? 1000? 43? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/174 "2010-06-30T11:53:46Z")
**Gyrate** : My suspicion is that it just needs to be _one_ in **magellan** ’s rubric. And I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the actual number required for him is _zero_. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/175 "2010-07-01T02:06:25Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > So just to keep me happy so that we have it on the record, and referring to my post earlier, you do advocate extreme wariness of one’s brothers and father, don’t you? They being far and away the most dangerous defined group in anyone’s life. Well, “extreme” is your word. Other than that **BigT** addressed this satisfactorily. You seem to think that you’ve found some oh-so-interesting-trap. You haven’t. I don’t even where you got this “statistic” from. Assuming it accurate, it might have a little something to do with proximity and the amount of time they spend together. Now, if someone is in a household where the father or brother drinks or has drug problems and can be violent, then it probably makes sense for that person to be more concerned about a family member killing him than a random Muslim. But the threat that I have from my brother and father is zero. So, given that, do I have your permission to assess threats from others? Both individuals and groups? Do I have you permission to view the dirtbags who inhabit the Tenderloin here in SF as possible threats? As more of a threat than those who live in Sausalito where I ride my bike through? Do I have your permission to view a gangs as more of a threat than the guys I hoop with at the health club? > [@Princhester](#): > > You have totally lost the thread of yourself. You said that there wasn’t a foolproof method of weeding out the bad Muslims so we should be wary of them all. I do wish their was a foolproof method for determining the good from the hateful and murderous. But since their isn’t, I’m forced to be wary of the whole lot. > [@Princhester](#): > > When someone said that on that basis, you should be wary of Christians, you then suggested foolproofness wasn’t an appropriate metric. In short, you haven’t become any less of a weasel since the last time I was silly enough to debate you. And you no less of an ass. That aside, I see no reason to be wary of Christians, especially not _due to_ their Christianity. Even if more crimes are committed by them in the U.S. Now, if numerous Christians start making statements about how in the name of Christianity they think they need to eradicate a group of which I am a member from the face of the U.S., and then have some success by killing thousands at a time and killing others of said group indiscriminately with guns and bombs, then I may find the need to become wary of them. But as it is, no, there is no need. Of course one thing you seem to not get is that in the world of threats, as they exist, we actually want threats that we can define to as small a group as possible. Those are the ones we can better protect ourselves against. It would be great if serial murderous were all albinos over 6’6", wouldn’t it? As opposed to “that average non-descript guy walking down the street”. Or if they all were Boy Scouts + asthmatic + left-handed + one blue and one green eye. But they’re not, so there’s not much we can do to protect ourselves from serial murderers. Or pedophiles. Or rapists. But we do pay attention to the pedophile or rapist after he’s caught and served his time. I’m sure that the rate of recidivism is not 100%, yet we treat it like it is. The point is that threats fall along a spectrum. On one end you have highly identifiable threats, like pedophiles and members of Mara Salvatrucha. On the other you have a 5’11" white Christian who just might wind up raping or abusing a child or, as you point out, killing his son or brother. We can anticipate the danger lurking in the first group much better then the latter. So, it makes sense that we would be more wary of them. In the U.S., Muslims fall somewhere in the middle. They might not reach your threshold for wariness, but after the murder of 3,000 people on 9/11, the scumbag shooter at Fort Hood, the other Muslim soldier that killed his comrades at the beginning of the Iraq War, the nitwit would-be murderer who tried to blow up Times Square, the scores of arrests of radical Islamists here in the U.S., not to mention the percent of Muslims in the Arab world who (to paraphrase the findings that have been cited on these boards numerous times) believe that violence and killing in the name of Islam is appropriate, my threshold for wariness has been reached. I think you’re a fool to think Islam is as benign as Unitarianism, or Christianity. We know that there is a radical arm that has both the desire and the means to do us great harm. I want 9/11 to remain the worst attack to happen to the U.S. Not have it dwarfed by your Kumbaya pollyannish naivete. I hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/176 "2010-07-01T02:18:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I want 9/11 to remain the worst attack to happen to the U.S. Not have it dwarfed by your Kumbaya pollyannish naivete. > > I hope that helps. What measures are you actually suggesting be enacted? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/177 "2010-07-01T02:21:24Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And you no less of an ass. That aside, I see no reason to be wary of Christians, especially not _due to_ their Christianity. Even if more crimes are committed by them in the U.S. Now, if numerous Christians start making statements about how in the name of Christianity they think they need to eradicate a group of which I am a member from the face of the U.S., and then have some success by killing thousands at a time and killing others of said group indiscriminately with guns and bombs, then I may find the need to become wary of them. But as it is, no, there is no need. So in other words, since I’m an abortion rights supporter, in your world I’m totally justified in being wary of all Christians. Great job. I really appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/178 "2010-07-01T02:25:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I want 9/11 to remain the worst attack to happen to the U.S. Not have it dwarfed by your Kumbaya pollyannish naivete. Alright, Pinky, but how are we going to undo Pearl Harbor? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/179 "2010-07-01T02:28:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Fair point. So all that remains is for you to show that the percentage of Muslims in the US that is “dangerous” is large enough to be even remotely significant. > > I mean, if you’re just speaking about some hypothetical group here and not about Muslims specifically, we can safely ignore your entire post as irrelevant twaddle. And if you \*are \*talking about Muslims, put up or shut up. How about this…how about we look at just those instances that have actually happened, leaving The Cole and the embassies abroad out of it: the 1993 WTC bombing—6 killed, 1,042 injured 9/11—2,976 killed, 6291+ injured (not to mention financial toll and the scar on the city and the nation) the Fort Hood shooting—13 dead, 30 wounded Sgt. Asan Akbar throws hand grenades into tent and opens fire—2 dead, 14 wounded the Times Square bomber the numerous arrests made in the U.S. of those planning similar attacks. Now, as large as those numbers are, the important thing is that they were not unrelated acts. They all come from the same place: radical Islam and it’s desire to see Americans dead. It seems that you look at that and shrug your shoulders. If so, I ask: if there was another attack, would that change your view? Five more attacks? Ten? Fifty? Is their any number of attacks/attempts that would cause you to say, “What the fuck is it with Islam? Enough already!!!”? What’s the number? Or is their no number for you. And you’ll go on thinking Islam is as peaceful a religion (“is”, not “can be”) as Quakerism, or (shudder) Christianity until you happen to be in something they blow up? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2010, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476/180 "2010-07-01T02:31:28Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So in other words, since I’m an abortion rights supporter, in your world I’m totally justified in being wary of all Christians. > > Great job. I really appreciate it. I’m Pro Choice myself. But if you think that the percent of Christians that wish to do you physical harm is proportionate to the percent of Muslims in the U.S. who wish to do you harm, then yes, you should be just as wary of Christians. But I do not think that to be near the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-evil-muslims-are-out-to-get-meeeeeee-for-valteron-and-perciful/544476.md?page=10)