# Help: family advice needed
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [September 13, 2004, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185 "2004-09-13T00:19:36Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@choosybeggar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choosybeggar)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/21 "2004-09-15T02:03:07Z")
In the OP I mentioned that Stephen has no OVERT mental illness. I stand by this. By overt I meant schizophenia, bipolar, or major depression. I posted his letter, in part, to substantiate this. While the business plan leaves much to be desired, there is a logical flow to the letter, it’s not fantastical, and he displays no paranoia. He and I discussed his mood recently, along with psychophysical symptomatology. This discussion failed to turn out criteria for depression.
That said, getting a dermatologist to diagnose a mental disorder is like…(Someone please fill in what it is like)
I feel that counseling of some kind will ultimately play a role here. I doubt that powerful psychoactive drugs will. Nevertheless, I’d support a professional evaluation.
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### Author:  [@choosybeggar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choosybeggar)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/22 "2004-09-15T02:33:07Z")
**Testride** , I’d like to respond to some of your helpful comments.
The business plan sounds trivial to me. It lacks details like how much debt is there to be paid off? How long will it take until monthly salary reaches $3600 (he only 1/3 there, by his own admission, after nearly 2 years)? After attaining a suitable payscale and paying off debts, how long will it take to accumulate a 20% down payment?
I believe the overall plan is to supplement his income from insurance sales with revenues colleced from tenants. In addition, rather than personally owning the building, he’ll form a corporate entity to reduce personal liability and (??possibly) not have his personal poor credit affect his ability to get financing.
My take on the CompanyY scenario is that Stephen signed them up last year and they were a significant account for him. However, they were weasels and didn’t pay premiums. His company cancelled their policy, thereby erasing the monthly commission he received.
Regarding the productivity issue, I have little basis for comparison from my profession but one account in two months sounds weak to me too.
I believe the bit about the bank relates to a potential second job. They are meeting later this month.
I agree about the check. Nobody knows but Stephen if it exists.
Ditto on the clinging to his last thread. I’ll explore this more next time I speak to him.
> [@testride](#):
>
> If I read the original post correctly, choosybeggar is an M.D. He should know–or at least know where to find out–how to get someone into psychiatric care even against his will. His complaints about migraines might be a suitable pretext to get him into a psychiatrist’s office–“steve, we just want to cover all the bases…” This just sounds like so much more than someone not wanting a 9 to 5 job.
I agree with your last sentence, but as I said in my last post, I don’t think he got a major psychiatric disorder. And I’m near positive he wouldn’t meet any criteria for involuntary committment.
I’m sure my judgment is somewhat affected by this being my older brother, but I can’t convince myself that there’s a major disorder.
Perhaps, the episode **Younger\_Brother** described with the anthrax and the yelling merits further consideration in this light. I’ll be sure to discuss the goings on with a psychiatry colleague.
Thanks to everyone that’s contributed so far. My family finds the discussion very helpful.
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### Author:  [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/23 "2004-09-15T03:46:51Z")
I kind of debated posting this since you’re trying to stay upbeat about his prospects, but like I said in my first note, I think have a pretty good idea of what’s going on his head re his job habits, and based on his email and the dinner behavior related by your younger brother, there’s just not that much you can do other than help him keep his head marginally above water. It’s obvious he has nothing going on, and he knows it.
My impression, based solely on your messages in this thread, is that both you and your brother seem to think seems to think he is willfully deluding himself, and that if only he would wake up and smell the coffee re the folly of this entrepreneurial piddling he could straighten himself out. I’ve got a newsflash for you, he never was truly “straight”. Not as a child, not as a student, not as a lab administrator, and not now. People who act in a socially clueless, overly-dramatic fashion, like he does, tend to lose jobs and find decent ones very hard to get. Even if he could land a decent 9-5 job, it is unlikely he would keep it for an extended period of time.
He’s dysfunctional on several levels, and I assure he is quite well aware of this, especially in the context of his high functioning siblings. What he really wants is simply to be survive and be accepted. You may think he willfully pulling some sort of passive-aggressive “you can’t make me do it” scam, but he’s not. He’s not nuts, and he’s not “sick”, it’s just the way he’s wired.
He most certainly does have psychological issues, but they are the chronic inborn kind, and are beyond any remedy you could concoct. There is _nothing_ you can do in this scenario, other than make sure his basic shelter and sustenance needs are reasonably accommodated. Until and unless he is agreeable to moving beyond his marginal existence you are simply going to frustrate yourselves trying to fix him and/or his situation.
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### Author:  [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)
#### Post date: [September 15, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/24 "2004-09-15T16:30:42Z")
> [@younger\_brother](#):
>
> TroubleAgain: I’m not sure if he see’s himself as “too good to work for a living,” although the thought has crossed my mind. It seems more to me that there is nothing good enough for him to be doing. We even had a job all lined up for him to accept in teaching, but his excuses persisted as to why he couldn’t take that. Like starting at 40k - 50k wasn’t good enough, as he sees himself as a director or CEO and wants a job to pay minimally 100k. Then it was, I can’t teach, I have had a childhood fear about school… or something like that.
**younger\_brother** , first, welcome to the boards. I hope you stay.
Basically, what we’re disagreeing on here is a matter of semantics. It’s okay for other people to work at a normal job every day making 40-50k (or less), but it’s not okay for him, because he’s\* better than that.\* That’s what I’m hearing from you and from the letter that was posted. I used to think I was destined for great things, too. I outgrew that grandiose notion. I am quite happy to be working at my normal, everyday job, making 40-50k a year. Sometimes you have to adjust your expectations. If I wanted to do better than that, I probably could, but having the basic necessities of life met while I _work my way up to Director_ is imperative. Doing what he’s doing could make you Donald Trump if you did it well enough and have the right luck, or it can end you up in the streets. If he can get himself established with enough savings to live on, and _then_ pursue his dream, fine.
Let me tell you a little story. My dad found himself unemployed for the first and basically only time in his life at age 40-something. He decided to go into real estate instead of the blue-collar line he was in. He took the test and passed it, first go, with a really good score. He got a job with a real estate agent. And then he proceeded to have no income for several months until his other job hired him back. If he’d done this at a time when he had savings to live on for a year, he’d probably have done well and now have a thriving career in real estate. Practicality demands that you have substantial savings to live on while you’re establishing yourself in any kind of commissions-dependent career. It’s the only safe way to do things. Yes, you could luck up and things go great, and you get rich. Or you could end up like my dad, just farther and farther in debt. ::shrug:: I know some people like taking chances, but I believe in security and safety.
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### Author:  [@younger\_brother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/younger_brother)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2004, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/25 "2004-09-16T02:49:32Z")
> [@TroubleAgain](#):
>
> **younger\_brother** , first, welcome to the boards. I hope you stay.
Thanks!
> [@TroubleAgain](#):
>
> Basically, what we’re disagreeing on here is a matter of semantics. It’s okay for other people to work at a normal job every day making 40-50k (or less), but it’s not okay for him, because he’s\* better than that.\* That’s what I’m hearing from you and from the letter that was posted. I used to think I was destined for great things, too. I outgrew that grandiose notion. I am quite happy to be working at my normal, everyday job, making 40-50k a year. Sometimes you have to adjust your expectations. If I wanted to do better than that, I probably could, but having the basic necessities of life met while I _work my way up to Director_ is imperative. Doing what he’s doing could make you Donald Trump if you did it well enough and have the right luck, or it can end you up in the streets. If he can get himself established with enough savings to live on, and _then_ pursue his dream, fine.
I can’t disagree with anything here. Yeah, I’m hoping he outgrows it… and soon. Ya know its kind like beating your head against a brick wall, hopefully you’ll stop and say, “Ouch, that hurts. Maybe I shouldn’t do that.”
> [@TroubleAgain](#):
>
> … I know some people like taking chances, but I believe in security and safety.
Ditto!
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### Author:  [@furthur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furthur)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2004, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/26 "2004-09-16T04:44:28Z")
I’ve hesitated to post so far. Many good things have already been said. But after I read your brother Stephen’s letter, I thought I might add something.
First of all, younger\_brother’s comments about Stephen’s rejection of the $50,000 job in favor of the "potential CEO position, " let’s say, sets off alarm bells. Stephen seems to think that he could step into such a job today, and it’s (in some sense) due him. And yet, his life position for the last 10 years does not indicate that he has a CEO skill set. I’m not trying to be facetious here. What does he see in his life – or what is he imagining in his life – that indicates he would be able to perform as the head of a company, even if someone hired him as such tomorrow?
It’s worrisome, because although he displays no overt, definite signs of mental illness, he’s clearly not seeing himself accurately or living reality rather than fantasy. The trail of “get rich quick” schemes in his background indicate that this self-delusion is a pattern.
I had an uncle very like this. He went from scheme to scheme. He too formed corporations; he too did commissions and sales work. Similarly, his schemes would invariable implode, ending with him turning to family and crying his “bad luck.” He saw his life, mostly, as what he wanted it to be rather than what it was, but in a more extreme fashion than most of us – he too saw himself as only fit to be CEO, not one of the grunts. Like your brother, he turned down many positions (since my uncle was somewhat successful at his peak, even $150,000 to $200,000 ones) as beneath him and his true talents.
In my uncle’s case, he had (at least borderline) bipolar disorder, diagnosed, as well as narcissistic personality disorder. Both of those disorders contributed to his refusal or inability to perceive himself and his life in reality instead of in fantasy. Although his diagnosis enabled our family to understand him better, the very nature of his illnesses meant that despite all our efforts, we could not help him. Each attempt ended with him taking advantage of us in some fashion, but his life got no better or happier or more stable. He had a limitless capability to take from anyone (family included) and judge it his due – and like Walter Mitty, he was always the star of his own personal movie. True reality was far too distressing.
Although I don’t agree with everything fessie said – I do think your brother has some degree of mental illness, and it might be helpful to find out what kind and to what degree – I think her “tough love” stance (that also includes communication without judgment) has a lot of merit. It sounds like you’re starting the tough love process; I hope that ends up working for him, and he sees what’s really going on in his life. But I also encourage you to try to keep communicating, stop talking about his job, prospects, etc. That’s only a sore point for you both, and he refuses to let you _really_ help with it. So be it; that’s the tough love. As long as you can see him and talk about other things, though, do it. Whatever his mental status, it might help you all and him if you can maintain some type of cordiality.
Good luck. I wish your whole family the best possible outcome.
Mrs. Furthur
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### Author:  [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)
#### Post date: [September 16, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-family-advice-needed/264185/27 "2004-09-16T11:34:38Z")
I don’t have the solution, but it sure sounds to me that he’s addicted to something and/or mentally ill. Either way, he needs to get clean and/or get some therapy. No way to compel him to do it, though…
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