# Help gun nuts describe their views **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873 "2015-08-03T11:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/61 "2015-08-04T18:42:21Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Most of the countries ahead of the US in [suicide deaths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate) have stricter gun laws. Seems like a pretty crude measure. Just looking at that list, if you controlled for per capita GDP or other measures of well-being you’d have a very different list. Actual scholarly research on the subject controls for the other factors that we know contribute to suicide. And it finds that gun ownership is correlated to higher overall suicide rates (gun and non-gun). ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/62 "2015-08-04T18:49:13Z")
\*\*Help gun nuts describe their views \*\* - It kinda seems like a take on the classic Artilleryman adage. A concealed carry owner only knows two kinds of people; other concealed carry owners or rapists, murders and thieves that need blasting! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/63 "2015-08-04T18:50:25Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] Seems like a pretty crude measure. Just looking at that list, if you controlled for per capita GDP or other measures of well-being you’d have a very different list. [/QUOTE] Seems as good as any to me, if we are trying to gauge a rough comparison between countries. Your point is that access to guns would cut down on suicide, yet as I said, many countries that do just that have higher or comparable suicide rates to the US that has free(er) access to the things. While the US is in the top 3rd, many countries below us are below us only marginally, despite having limited or no access to guns at all. > [@](#): > > Actual scholarly research on the subject controls for the other factors that we know contribute to suicide. And it finds that gun ownership is correlated to higher overall suicide rates (gun and non-gun). I’d have to see the studies and the methodology used to see how valid they might be. For instance, the suicide rate in the US has remained [fairly constant](https://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures) (but risen slightly over the last 10 years), yet the number households with no guns in them at all have dropped…so, I’d need to see how this seeming counter evidence factors into the theory you are stating, since it’s a bit counter intuitive that there are fewer American households with guns yet the suicide rate has increased. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/64 "2015-08-04T18:53:32Z")
Again, obesity is a 10 times larger problem, so why not start legislating calorie intake, mandatory exercise, banning sweets and unnecessary carbohydrates. Not any of this mamby pamby restaurant calorie labeling and container sizing regs. After a few years, people above a certain BMI can be arrested and sent to work out farms to get their fitness levels back in shape. That will certainly save more lives than those generated by gun deaths. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/65 "2015-08-04T18:58:23Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Again, obesity is a 10 times larger problem, so why not start legislating calorie intake, mandatory exercise, banning sweets and unnecessary carbohydrates. Not any of this mamby pamby restaurant calorie labeling and container sizing regs. After a few years, people above a certain BMI can be arrested and sent to work out farms to get their fitness levels back in shape. That will certainly save more lives than those generated by gun deaths. Yeah, overshadows even the ~88k/year due to alcohol related deaths per year in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/66 "2015-08-04T19:02:53Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, overshadows even the ~88k/year due to alcohol related deaths per year in the US. Birds and bushes, people: Tell all the gun fanciers that in order to be well-regulated militia, they need to get some exercise and cut back on the beer. They’ll all be so busy exercising that they won’t have time to shoot the place up. Winner! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/67 "2015-08-04T19:05:50Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Birds and bushes, people: Tell all the gun fanciers that in order to be well-regulated militia, they need to get some exercise and cut back on the beer. They’ll all be so busy exercising that they won’t have time to shoot the place up. > > Winner! Wait…do the rest of us have too as well?? :eek: 'Cause I’m really not into exercise or cutting back on pizza, snacks and such (nor cigars…I’ve already cut out the beer, so at least there is that)!! ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/68 "2015-08-04T19:12:54Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Wait…do the rest of us have too as well?? :eek: 'Cause I’m really not into exercise or cutting back on pizza, snacks and such (nor cigars…I’ve already cut out the beer, so at least there is that)!! Well, I dunno, son… are you in the militia? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/69 "2015-08-04T19:17:22Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Well, I dunno, son… are you in the militia? :dubious: I saw Red Dawn…does that count?? ---
**Author:** ![Construct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@Construct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Construct)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/70 "2015-08-04T19:36:17Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > Good news! This year gun deaths [are predicted to surpass automobile deaths](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/01/americas-top-killing-machine/384440/)in the U.S. > > That’s why I’m advocating a change in gun culture in this country. By changing drunk driving culture, both through legislation and through societal pressure, we have managed to cut drunk driving fatalities in half since the 1980’s. Imagine what we could do if we really worked to change attitudes toward guns. Do you accept the reality that the majority of US gun deaths are young black criminals killing other young black criminals with illegal handguns? Or do you cling to your false and superstitious beliefs that White rural conservatives commit gun crime? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/71 "2015-08-04T20:01:09Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Do you accept the reality that the majority of US gun deaths are young black criminals killing other young black criminals with illegal handguns? Or do you cling to your false and superstitious beliefs that White rural conservatives commit gun crime? I accept that the majority of gun deaths are suicides with legally-owned handguns, as discussed previously in this thread and in multiple other gun-related threads. ---
**Author:** ![UberArchetype](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/2bfe46/32.png) [@UberArchetype](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UberArchetype)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/72 "2015-08-04T20:14:31Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > And if we really worked at changing people’s attitudes toward spoons just imagine the impact on obesity, which causes about 10 times more deaths a year in the US than guns. And while we’re at it, somebody really needs to go after the medical profession. You do realize you are FAR more likely to be injured or killed by interaction with a healthcare professional than a gun nut of any variety, right? ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/73 "2015-08-04T20:36:06Z")
The media is responsible for the hysteria. Needed Headline: **Cecil the neighborhood Fat Man, Has Heart Attack and Dies!** Maybe that would rile up the masses. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/74 "2015-08-04T21:37:38Z")
> [@Construct](#): > > Do you accept the reality that the majority of US gun deaths are young black criminals killing other young black criminals with illegal handguns? Well gee, then we shouldn’t really be so concerned. As the old joke goes: When a white guy kills a white guy, that’s murder. When a white guy kills a black guy, that’s justifiable homicide. When a black guy kills another black guy, well that just one less… ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/75 "2015-08-04T21:47:38Z")
I accept that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are from suicide, and that most of those are older white men. That is a tragedy. I accept that the leading cause of death for black men 15-24 is homicide by gun. That is a tragedy. I do not accept that either of those situations is unchangeable. I do not accept that it is more important to maintain the current gun culture in the U.S. than to try to find solutions to these tragedies. I have already made several suggestions for solutions to these problems that do not involve gun legislation. What are your solutions? I’m interested in hearing them. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/76 "2015-08-04T22:50:52Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I accept that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are from suicide, and that most of those are older white men. That is a tragedy. > > I accept that the leading cause of death for black men 15-24 is homicide by gun. That is a tragedy. > > I do not accept that either of those situations is unchangeable. I do not accept that it is more important to maintain the current gun culture in the U.S. than to try to find solutions to these tragedies. > > I have already made several suggestions for solutions to these problems that do not involve gun legislation. What are your solutions? I’m interested in hearing them. 1. Suicide counseling hotlines 2. Better education on mental health and wellness 3. More vocational training for lower income youths 4. Banning violent rap music 5. Alternative approaches to gang task forces 6. Better contraceptive education for low income youths The best way to solve a problem is to address the root cause and not focus on the apparent symptoms. ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/77 "2015-08-05T01:20:31Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > 1. Suicide counseling hotlines > 2. Better education on mental health and wellness > 3. More vocational training for lower income youths > 4. Banning violent rap music > 5. Alternative approaches to gang task forces > 6. Better contraceptive education for low income youths > > The best way to solve a problem is to address the root cause and not focus on the apparent symptoms. Thanks for responding. I’m behind all of these except #4, which I see as another symptom rather than a cause. I’m also as fervent a supporter of the First Amendment as some people are of the Second Amendment. I would like to see those Second Amendment supporters get behind some of the ideas you suggest. Helping to alleviate the causes would go a long way toward making me feel less antagonistic about the symptoms. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/78 "2015-08-05T03:24:31Z")
[Quote=Omar Little] Of the 32,000 annual gun deaths in the US only about 3% are the result of accidents. About 34% of the total are homicides. While 60% are suicides. [/QUOTE] Of the 84,258 nonfatal firearm injuries in 2013, 16,864 were the result of accidents. That’s about 20%. You must think that’s a sizable enough proportion that we could do something about it, right? Of that total, 62,220 were assault related. That’s 74%!! That’s a big proportion. You must be jumping out of your seat wanting to do something about that. 3,991 were self-harm. That’s only 5%. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/79 "2015-08-05T08:25:52Z")
I think America’s best chance at meaningful gun control is if we see some more ISIS inspired lone wolf type shootings. As we’ve seen in this thread, when it’s black on black violence, Americans assume that the victims were probably drug dealers who had it coming. When, as is usually the case, the shooter is a white male loser with no prospects in life, well what are you gonna do? But for some reason, when the gun nut is darker skinned and motivated by religous lunacy as opposed to other types of lunacy, it gets America’s attention. A couple more instances of dark skinned religous fanatics shooting up whire America and you might see some calls for reform from the heartland. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2015, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/80 "2015-08-05T10:19:47Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > I accept that the majority of gun deaths in the U.S. are from suicide, and that most of those are older white men. That is a tragedy. Wait. Last I heard the young-uns were pretty fed up with aging baby boomers, white males in particular. Seems like they’d be all for the status quo here. 😉 [Not directed at SpoilerVirgin in particular] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873.md?page=5)