# Help gun nuts describe their views **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 3, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873 "2015-08-03T11:36:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/141 "2015-08-13T06:32:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope. Most Euro nations didnt have much violent crime before Gun Controls. or- many guns. So… lotsa guns lead to violent crimes, but gun control doesn’t limit the number of guns? Or is this the US is a violent society shtick? Because there are lots of frontier countries without wackadoodle amounts of gun fatality. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/142 "2015-08-13T10:03:50Z")
> [@Bruce\_Wayne](#): > > So your logical end game is… again, something that will never work. It’s not my “logical end game” but it has certainly worked where implemented. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > Are those European criminals willing to shoot people for pocket change, or to make a statement as in a drive-by shooting? If so, why aren’t they doing that? Because they’re not willing to violate the gun laws. Not quite. Making guns harder to get - and making possession of guns illegal - results in criminals using them less frequently since it’s harder to get them (and get new ones once used) and because the level of risks in getting caught with them are higher. This doesn’t mean that they’re never used - indeed, I’ve mentioned previously that we had a drive-by shooting in our area (resulting in one injury and no fatalities) - but that the average Brit doesn’t worry about criminals with guns attacking them because only a minority of criminals will have guns and those that have them will use them more sparingly. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So… lotsa guns lead to violent crimes, but gun control doesn’t limit the number of guns? Or is this the US is a violent society shtick? Because there are lots of frontier countries without wackadoodle amounts of gun fatality. Reminds me of something I saw on Twitter recently: > [@](#): > > Birth control? > BAN IT! > Abortion? > BAN IT! > Gay marriage? > BAN IT! > Guns? > Look, banning things never works. People will find ways to get them. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/143 "2015-08-13T16:20:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > It’s not my “logical end game” but it has certainly worked where implemented. > > Not quite. Making guns harder to get - and making possession of guns illegal - results in criminals using them less frequently since it’s harder to get them (and get new ones once used) and because the level of risks in getting caught with them are higher. This doesn’t mean that they’re never used - indeed, I’ve mentioned previously that we had a drive-by shooting in our area (resulting in one injury and no fatalities) - but that the average Brit doesn’t worry about criminals with guns attacking them because only a minority of criminals will have guns and those that have them will use them more sparingly. > > Reminds me of something I saw on Twitter recently: > Heh. Thank you **Gyrate** for the excellent tone of intelligence and sanity. Good joke; too bad automatic multiquote is turned off. Of course I especially detest the sick, moronic, hypocritical, and cowardly gun nuts who are some common in Amerika, but fortunately these are rarish at SDMB. Still the “better” gun nuts, the ones who DON’T want guns for fear of an (ethnic?) OTHER, DON’T condone the “Her’s just black; let God sort em out” mentality of e.g. Baltimore Police, DON’T object to the notion that the worst felons and psychopaths would be subject to license refusal, and DON’T require a weapon because of overblown fears – yes even the well-adjusted and intelligent gun hobbyists who participate in gun rights debates because it’s an issue that interests them _overlook many of the problems with guns, as **Gyrate** ’s post demonstrates._ Single example: Most suicide-by-guns succeed, while most suicides-by-other fail. Since suicide is often a relatively spur-of-the-moment thing, there are many(\*) dead Americans who would be alive without a gun. [CDC.gov](http://CDC.gov) reports 21,000 “successful” suicides by gun in 2013, and 20,000 by all-other. If even 5% of those lives would have been saved without the extreme gun culture, then lossed lives just this decade _far_ exceed American losses on 11 September 2001. Yet when the Dopegunners answer it’s “Duh!!! … Duh. All y’all din’d e’en know guns can kill?? Daaaaahl-Garn it.” (\* Are you getting ready to snarkle septimoo and click Reply to hit “Cite?” ?Fuck off! You got your tirds all squished up in your rectum like **John Mace** And John, my friend! Take a poop before you post. Try bananas or chocolate or something. If that doesn’t work, see a doctor. Google it yourself.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/144 "2015-08-13T16:22:36Z")
Meanwhile, the thread has been hijacked from its stated direction. I’d like all Dopers to weigh in on Question 13: Cliven Bundy (A) The Feds should have taken him out, perhaps with a sniper’s rifle. (B) No, that would be illegal. Cops must attempt to make a non-lethal arrest, but he and his bodygaurds could be blown away at any time if they put LEO in fear. © Feds should sneak in after dark, steal Bundy’s cattle. (D) Bundy is a free man on the land. Feds might invite him to treaty negotiation, but he is under no obligation to attend. (E) The Bundy episode is a perfect example of the elegance and efficacy of the Second Amendment! Can you imagine what these men would have done without guns? They’d probably have to let Big-Government dude steal their cattle. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/145 "2015-08-13T17:18:22Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Are those European criminals willing to shoot people for pocket change, or to make a statement as in a drive-by shooting? If so, why aren’t they doing that? Because they’re not willing to violate the gun laws. Uh, because those countries aren’t awash in guns because they have gun control laws? Also, when you talk about criminals who do drive by shootings, you mean blacks don’t you? It’s okay, you can admit it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/146 "2015-08-13T17:20:16Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So… lotsa guns lead to violent crimes, but gun control doesn’t limit the number of guns? Or is this the US is a violent society shtick? Because there are lots of frontier countries without wackadoodle amounts of gun fatality. No, lotsa guns don’t lead to violent crimes. Social stratification, racism, and people growing up poor in poor ghettos with no way out- leads to violent crime. Spending money on tanks rather than schools and social services keeps the poor people in the bad neighborhoods with no way out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/147 "2015-08-13T17:23:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > T > Single example: Most suicide-by-guns succeed, while most suicides-by-other fail. Since suicide is often a relatively spur-of-the-moment thing, there are many(\*) dead Americans who would be alive without a gun. [CDC.gov](http://CDC.gov) reports 21,000 “successful” suicides by gun in 2013, and 20,000 by all-other. If even 5% of those lives would have been saved without the extreme gun culture, then lossed lives just this decade _far_ exceed American losses on 11 September 2001. Yes, and since I think people have a right to suicide (as long as they dont take anyone with them) then I have no big issue with this. It’s very sad, but it should be a basic human right. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/148 "2015-08-13T17:37:03Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Meanwhile, the thread has been hijacked from its stated direction. I’d like all Dopers to weigh in on > > Question 13: Cliven Bundy > \ Technically, Bundy was violating _written_ laws and/or regulations. Your question seems to ask if we have 2[sup]nd[/sup] Amendment right to break the law with guns. I’m not sure that helps gun-nuts clarify their views. Be afraid, [be very afraid](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/92/17/28/921728211e83c096b4d826ebc967d956.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/149 "2015-08-13T17:45:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and since I think people have a right to suicide (as long as they dont take anyone with them) then I have no big issue with this. It’s very sad, but it should be a basic human right. _You missed the point totally._ True, among the roughly 300,000 Americans during 2000-2015 who killed themselves deliberately with a gun, over half would have found a way to kill themselves no matter what. But some portion (20,000? More likely 35,000 or more) had a bout of depression and would have turned their life around if their attempt hadn’t succeeded. Suicides by gun are far more likely to succeed than suicides by other. _Ergo, many thousands (tens of thousands?) are dead **who would have come to their senses, no longer wanted to kill themselves, and made an effort to turn their lives around**._ Now if you have some urge to go hunting with Dick Cheney, or to parade your automatic weapon at Denny’s Restaurant, fine; don’t worry about the many many thousands of suicides that would be prevented without the asinine gun culture. But do not pretend that these lives do not exist. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/150 "2015-08-13T17:50:22Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Technically, Bundy was violating _written_ laws and/or regulations. Your question seems to ask if we have 2[sup]nd[/sup] Amendment right to break the law with guns. I’m not sure that helps gun-nuts clarify their views. > > Be afraid, [be very afraid](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/92/17/28/921728211e83c096b4d826ebc967d956.jpg) 😕 Many many of the 2nd-Amendment nuts insist that armed resistance to oppressive government is at the heart of their movement. If Bundy’s stand was not a stand against abuses like King George III’s I don’t know what would be. What percentage of NRA supports Bundy? How about YouTube channel #RedneckGuns!!! And who’s the picture? Black panthers? Oh no; though they don’t say it aloud, Bundy’s ethnic status is integral to his goodness. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/151 "2015-08-13T17:52:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Amerika. Once you use that spelling, you are no longer a rational human with which to debate. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/152 "2015-08-13T18:02:36Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Uh, because those countries aren’t awash in guns because they have gun control laws? Also, when you talk about criminals who do drive by shootings, you mean blacks don’t you? It’s okay, you can admit it. It’s true. I’m not claiming that Britain’s a paradise on earth or anything - though on the whole it’s not bad and our border guards tend to have to keep people out rather than in - but at least our oppressive gun control laws mean we don’t have about 947 guns in circulation per head of the population, and, completely unrelated of course, we’re some light on shootings in general and a mass shooting happens maybe once a decade, maybe less. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/153 "2015-08-13T18:36:20Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > 😕 Many many of the 2nd-Amendment nuts insist that armed resistance to oppressive government is at the heart of their movement. If Bundy’s stand was not a stand against abuses like King George III’s I don’t know what would be. What percentage of NRA supports Bundy? How about YouTube channel #RedneckGuns!!! Yes, armed resistance to oppressive government is why _some_ believe the 2[sup]nd[/sup] Amendment was added to the Bill of Rights in the first place. Even the more restrictive interpretation of the 2[sup]nd[/sup] Amendment allows well regulated State militias to keep and bear arms. The Colonies wanted to be able to “put down” the _Federales_ like some rabid dog if needed. So at some level it’s understandable that the _Federales_ do behave after 150 years of staring at the business end of a gun. It’s weak argument for sure, but it does have a bit of The Truth. How does history change if the _Federales_ were free to do whatever they wanted? > [@septimus](#): > > And who’s the picture? Black panthers? Oh no; though they don’t say it aloud, Bundy’s ethnic status is integral to his goodness. Black Panthers … yes … a very good reason for whitie to love MLK Jr. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/154 "2015-08-13T18:44:06Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > The Colonies wanted to be able to “put down” the _Federales_ like some rabid dog if needed. That’s what the provision in the Constitution itself for chucking the whole thing and starting over was for. But there was no provision for doing it by force of arms, and plenty of provision for suppressing rebellions. > [@](#): > > How does history change if the _Federales_ were free to do whatever they wanted? If the Supremacy Clause were there? History doesn’t change at all. 😉 > [@](#): > > Black Panthers … yes … a very good reason for whitie to love MLK Jr. The NRA was in favor of _dis_arming them, back then. ---
**Author:** ![August\_West](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/august_west/32/18069_2.png) [@August\_West](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/August_West)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/155 "2015-08-13T19:31:26Z")
Do we have a “law” on this board that speaks to the fact that the longer a thread grows, the more likely it is to be dominated by morons? If not I’d like to propose that we call it “the madmonk28/DrDeth law” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/156 "2015-08-13T19:58:14Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Do we have a “law” on this board that speaks to the fact that the longer a thread grows, the more likely it is to be dominated by morons? If not I’d like to propose that we call it “the madmonk28/DrDeth law” I know, my views on gun control and the 2nd Ad\* are\* the views of morons, Morons like the Supreme Court and the Founding Fathers.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/157 "2015-08-13T20:10:12Z")
> [@August\_West](#): > > Do we have a “law” on this board that speaks to the fact that the longer a thread grows, the more likely it is to be dominated by morons? If not I’d like to propose that we call it “the madmonk28/DrDeth law” No need to make a law, it happens just naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/158 "2015-08-14T09:56:40Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No, lotsa guns don’t lead to violent crimes. Social stratification, racism, and people growing up poor in poor ghettos with no way out- leads to violent crime. Spending money on tanks rather than schools and social services keeps the poor people in the bad neighborhoods with no way out. But lotsa guns _facilitate_ violent crimes. They are…what was the phrase someone used? … “power multipliers”. It’s a lot harder to kill a roomful of people at a distance with a switchblade, and you can take the usual “drive-by stabbings” joke as read. Obviously, improving the conditions in poor neighborhoods that are leading to crime is a good thing too, but let’s not handwave away the effects of easy access to cheap firearms. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Once you use that spelling, you are no longer a rational human with which to debate. True, it doesn’t help much. At least it was only one K. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/159 "2015-08-14T13:15:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > If the Supremacy Clause were there? History doesn’t change at all. Are you suggesting without guns we’d still develop a gun culture? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873/160 "2015-08-14T13:26:11Z")
I have no idea what you think the connection is there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-gun-nuts-describe-their-views/726873.md?page=9)