# Help! I'm lost! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2001, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839 "2001-01-26T07:04:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/21 "2001-01-27T04:33:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sethdallob \* > \*\*My train of thought just derailed… > > If you are in DC @ 40N, and the sun never comes higher in the horizon than 23.5N, how can it _ever_ appear to come out of the north(east)?? The tilt of the earth with respect to the sun is the derivation of the tropical lines (isn’t it?). \*\* Whew! Long explanation coming. Hold on… (Note that all my comments are Nothern Hemisphere centered, 40[sup]o[/sup]N specific. No offense meant to our fellow Dopers “down under”.) What I’ve said is that in the spring & summer, the Sun’s path is sometimes in the northern half of the sky and sometimes in the southern half. It’s in the northern half just after sunrise and just before sunset, with the “just” amount varying from 3.5 hours at solstice to infintesimal close to the equinoxes. But its path crosses from north to south and vice versa hours before “noon”, i.e. when the Sun is at its highest. The 23.5[sup]o[/sup] measurement is in no way related to how high the Sun gets in the sky. It is the degree of tilt of the Earth relative to the plane of the solar system. What it does define is the range of latitude north **and** south that the Sun _can_ be overhead, 23.5[sup]o[/sup] north and south of the Equator. On an equinox at noon, the Sun’s elevation (degree measurement from the horizon) is easily determined from a given location’s latitude: 90[sup]o[/sup] - latitude. So at the equator, the Sun’s noontime elevation is 90[sup]o[/sup]; in DC its elevation is 51.2[sup]o[/sup], and at the North and South Poles its elevation is 0[sup]o[/sup]. (Yes, the Sun is right at the horizon all day long on the equinoxes at the poles.) At Summer Solstice, these elevations vary by 23.5[sup]o[/sup]: the equator Sun’s elevation is 66.5[sup]o[/sup]; in DC it’s 74.7[sup]o[/sup] (just about following what I determined earlier sans mathematics); and at the North Pole it gets up to 23.5[sup]o[/sup]. (At the south, we’d subtract, getting -23.5[sup]o[/sup], which means of course that the Sun never rises above the horizon at the South Pole near the June Solstice.) Sorry I can’t explain things easier. Maybe if I have time later I’ll post some pictures of how this whole thing works. ---
**Author:** ![sethdallob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@sethdallob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sethdallob)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/22 "2001-01-27T07:47:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AWB \* > It’s in the northern half just after sunrise and just before sunset, with the “just” amount varying from 3.5 hours at solstice to infintesimal close to the equinoxes. But its path crosses from north to south and vice versa hours before “noon”, i.e. when the Sun is at its highest. > > [section deleted] > > At Summer Solstice, these elevations vary by 23.5[sup]o[/sup]: the equator Sun’s elevation is 66.5[sup]o[/sup]; in DC it’s 74.7[sup]o[/sup] (just about following what I determined earlier sans mathematics). > > [section deleted] > > \*\* 😕 Umm just don’t get it; aren’t the 74.7 degrees measured up in a straight line from the south? Yes, the sun is further north than it will be at any other time, but relative to Jon Doe in Washington D.C., isn’t the sun 74.7 degrees above the southern horizon, which would still be south? I downloaded and looked at a GeoClock - one with the time zones and sunlight, etc. and I still really don’t get how the sun would ever appear to be in the northern sky for someone that lives north of the tropics. 😕 Thanks for your patience. ---
**Author:** ![Gremmie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Gremmie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gremmie)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/23 "2001-01-27T08:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DarrenS \* > \*\*I can be out driving somewhere, make 3 turns (e.g. left, left, right) and be TOTALLY UNABLE to reverse those directions to return. \*\* Don’t ever come to my school…or neighborhood for that matter…you’d never get out. p.s. while i don’t have an explanation, I know that one of my friends is the exact same way, so, rest assured, you’re not alone. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2001, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/24 "2001-01-27T12:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sethdallob \* > **😕 Umm just don’t get it; aren’t the 74.7 degrees measured up in a straight line from the south? Yes, the sun is further north than it will be at any other time, but relative to Jon Doe in Washington D.C., isn’t the sun 74.7 degrees above the southern horizon, which would still be south?** At celestial noon (when the Sun is due south and at its highest elevation for the day), the Sun is indeed at 74.7[sup]o[/sup] above the horizon measured from the southern horizon. But the path that the Sun takes through the day is not “perpendicular” to the Earth’s plane, it is tilted. Because of this tilt, part of the path is in the southern sky, part in the northern. I’ll try to draw a picture and post it. ---
**Author:** ![sethdallob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@sethdallob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sethdallob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/25 "2001-01-30T00:13:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AWB \* > \*\* > > At celestial noon (when the Sun is due south and at its highest elevation for the day), the Sun is indeed at 74.7[sup]o[/sup] above the horizon measured from the southern horizon. But the path that the Sun takes through the day is not “perpendicular” to the Earth’s plane, it is tilted. Because of this tilt, part of the path is in the southern sky, part in the northern. I’ll try to draw a picture and post it. \*\* But isn’t the sun the highest in the sky that it will _ever_ get that 74.7 degrees? Wouldn’t that figure have to be \> 90 to appear to be out of the northern sky? 😕 If what your saying is so, this will make one damn good bar bet… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2001, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/26 "2001-01-30T02:07:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ianzin \* > … > > Some people, when they drive around, take notes (mentally) of the things they see and pass, major landmarks, handy things to recall and so on. As they pull in somewhere by turning right, for example, they mentally notice that they are making a right, and so it’s a cinch on the way out to know that they need to make a left (if they want to go back the way they came). What you are probably doing is failing to take this information in to start with, which is why you can’t recall it, which is why your sense of navigation is so poor. > > So that’s tip #1. Try to re-train yourself. Spark up your attention a little. Don’t just let the scenery pass you by. LOOK at handy landmarks and route-fixers, NOTICE them, train yourself to develop AWARENESS of them. To begin with, talk to yourself out loud: “Big Coke billboard on the LEFT as I set off from the lights”. That kind of thing. (I guess you only want to do this when you’re on your own!) Eventally, you will get the hang of it without having to say anything out loud. In time, it will be second-nature. > > Two notes on this: (1) pay attention to what YOU feel is a good route-marker. If your mind works best with street names (wordy information), notice street names. If it works best with big visual landmarks (visual/spatial information) notice them instead of the street names. Some people pay lots of attention to _sounds_. (2) It sounds kinda obvious, but remember you only need to notice two landmarks on any line to fix a direction. If you pass X and then Y, then anytime you are on that road again you can only pass them in one of two sequences: XY or YX. Either way, you’ll know whether you are going in the same direction you were before, or the opposite. > > … > \*\* This sounds like the best bit of practical advice I’ve seen in this thread. I’d like to underscore it, and add an observation. When I first did some caving many years back, I was always reminded to **look back** , because passage would look radically different when you were returning than when you were going in. This is a learned skill for nearly everybody. This isn’t always practical in driving, but perhaps you DO want to conciously look back the way you came when you make a turn, in order to fix the appearance coming back the other way in your mind. If you can do so safely, of course. You can certainly do that as you pull into a parking lot, and note what the street looks like in the correct direction to turn when you pull out. ---
**Author:** ![evilhanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba8739/32.png) [@evilhanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilhanz)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2001, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/27 "2001-01-30T02:36:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yabob \* > I was always reminded to **look back** , because passage would look radically different when you were returning than when you were going in. > \*\* This is also true in the world of backcountry travel. I didn’t remember that at the time of my original post. It becomes an unconscious habit. One other note. If you should happen to become lost, **Stop**. An extra 5 minutes won’t make a significant impact on your schedule. Continuing your journey may make matters worse. Think about where you are. When were you last _sure_ about your location? Consult your map and make an educated guess about your location based on the last prominent landmark, direction of travel, and the time it took. That should help you retrace your steps. ---
**Author:** ![AWB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@AWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AWB)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2001, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/28 "2001-01-30T04:13:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sethdallob \* > \*\*But isn’t the sun the highest in the sky that it will _ever_ get that 74.7 degrees? Wouldn’t that figure have to be \> 90 to appear to be out of the northern sky? 😕 > > If what your saying is so, this will make one damn good bar bet… 🙂 \*\* Correct in that the 74.7[sup]o[/sup] is the highest elevation that the Sun will attain at the latitude of Washington, DC. Incorrect in how elevation is measured throughout the day. The elevation is measured along the azimuth (direction) that the Sun is from the observer, not from the due south line. For example, in the data I showed above, at 09:21 am the Sun’s azimuth is 90.00[sup]o[/sup], and its elevation is 39.51[sup]o[/sup] _along that line_. A way to think of azimuth is the direction opposite of the direction that your shadow is cast. Therefore, at 9:21 on 6/22/01 in DC, shadows will be cast due west of the objects casting them. 90[sup]o[/sup] is the highest elevation possible, straight above the observer. There can’t be elevations higher; what you would really have is a smaller elevation measurement in the opposite direction. (I have a couple of perfect pictures to illustrate this. Unfortunately, my free webserver is having programming problems and I can’t upload them. I’ll let you know as soon as I can.) ---
**Author:** ![DarrenS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@DarrenS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarrenS)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/29 "2001-01-31T02:45:12Z")
Thanks for the responses, especially yabob and ianzin. Very insightful. I still wonder if people who have a “good innate sense of direction” actually take notes subconsciously (gas station on the right…big “Coke” billboard…funny looking tree…) or do they have something else going on? I have friends who can (literally) find their way around in the desert, where all the cactii look identical. Are they subconsciously taking bearings based on the angle of the sun? You are right that I often do not take a conscious interest in my surroundings - One thing is for sure - I am much better at remembering wordy things than physical/spatial things. I often do exactly what ianzin suggested - memorize directions verbally. That is a problem though if I miss a turning or deviate one iota from the memorized route! ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2001, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839/30 "2001-01-31T03:20:50Z")
I think I’ve read that there are two sorts of people with good senses of direction - those who have a map in their head and those who memorize a list of the things they passed and places they turned. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-im-lost/51839.md?page=1)