# Help me achieve challah nirvana **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** food-cooking\ **Created:** [May 20, 2026, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242 "2026-05-20T13:54:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/1 "2026-05-20T13:54:41Z")
I make challah every week, using a slightly modified version of this recipe: [The Only Challah Recipe You Will Ever Need, Amen. – The Cuban Reuben](https://thecubanreuben.com/shabbat-challah/) However, instead of braiding it in the traditional way, I make a pull-apart loaf by cutting the dough into 16 clumps, which I arrange and bake in an 8-inch round cake pan, 2.5 inches tall. I aspire to the taste and texture of a kosher bakery in Baltimore that sells challah in that style, [Rosendorf’s](https://www.rosendorffchallah.com/bakeryproducts). (Or used to: the pull-apart loaf isn’t listed there. ☹) Although I’ve achieved the flavor that I hoped for, I’ve always been dissatisfied with the cakey texture of my challah. Rosendorf’s, although light, has a more chewy and less crumby texture. FYI, to speed the process, I raise the bread in a proofing drawer at 120F. The first rise is usually about an hour, the second around 45 minutes, both until the volume doubles. I have been letting the bread rise for the second time after arranging the clumps in the cake pan, but while making a braided loaf recently, I discovered that I could achieve the texture I’m seeking by letting it rise in a bowl twice, then braiding and baking it. Hoping I could translate that information to the pull-apart loaf, I did exactly the same process: rise twice in the bowl, cut up and arrange the clumps in the pan without a rise, then bake. Unfortunately, the resulting loaf, while it had the right texture, didn’t rise above the top of the pan and was quite dense. I next tried three rises, with the third in the pan, but that resulted in the old cakey texture I don’t want. For my third try, I used two rises in the bowl, the first shorter than usual, so as not to exhaust the yeast, then arranged and baked. This loaf turned out like the first: good texture, but too dense. How can I achieve a pull-apart loaf that is both light and has the chewy texture I’m looking for? Rosendorf’s does it. Surely I can, too! ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/2 "2026-05-20T14:42:11Z")
Maybe knead (or at least pull) the dough more, to replicate the physical stress of being braided? ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/3 "2026-05-20T16:36:48Z")
I hand-knead the dough for at least five minutes before the first rise, so I don’t think the process of merely braiding it would change much. But, come to think of it, when I made the good braided loaf, in the process of preparing to braid it, I did knead the dough a bit after the second rise, so there may be something to that idea. Thanks for the suggestion. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/4 "2026-05-20T17:00:06Z")
I suspect the braiding process is more than just symbolic. It directly affects the properties of the loaf as it bakes. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/5 "2026-05-20T20:52:16Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Maybe knead (or at least pull) the dough more, to replicate the physical stress of being braided? - This is exactly what I was going to write. If bread is too cakey and not doughy enough, it needs more gluten development, i.e. kneading. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2026, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/6 "2026-05-20T21:44:50Z")
Out of curiosity, why do you want a pull-apart loaf? We “pull apart” braided challah all the time. ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2026, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-achieve-challah-nirvana/1030242/7 "2026-05-25T20:47:39Z")
Sorry not to answer this sooner. We tried Rosendorf’s pull-apart loaves and liked them, and after we moved away from Baltimore and I started baking challah myself every week, I tried to emulate them. I found a way to achieve what I was looking for, thanks to Claude AI. I gave it the same text as the OP. Here’s its full response, complete with a little introductory flattery. > What a wonderful breadmaking puzzle! Your observations are actually giving you really useful diagnostic information. Let me work through what’s happening and offer some targeted solutions. > > ## What You’ve Discovered > > Your key insight is that the second rise in the bowl (rather than in the pan) is what creates the chewy, less cakey texture. Here’s why: when the dough does its final proof already shaped and separated into clumps, the gluten relaxes in that configuration and the crumb sets up with more of a brioche-like, tender cell structure. When the dough is punched down and reshaped after its final fermentation, the gluten gets worked again just before baking, creating tighter, chewier structure — exactly what you want. > > The density problem in your successful-texture loaves is a proof deficit: the dough has exhausted much of its yeast activity by the time it hits the pan, and then you’re not giving it recovery time. > > ## The Core Tradeoff > > You’re essentially fighting between two forces: > > - More pan time = better rise, but cakey texture (over-proofed, relaxed gluten) > - Less pan time = chewier texture, but insufficient rise (under-proofed final shape) > > The solution is not to choose between them, but to change the conditions. > > ## Specific Suggestions > > 1. Cold retard the shaped loaf — This is probably the most promising approach. After your second bowl rise, cut and arrange the clumps in the pan, then put the pan in the refrigerator overnight (8–16 hours) instead of proofing it again. Bake straight from the fridge, adding a few minutes to your bake time. The slow cold fermentation will give the yeast time to generate lift without over-relaxing the gluten. Many professional bakeries use exactly this method. > > 2. Stop using the proofing drawer for the final rise — 120°F is quite hot for proofing and will exhaust your yeast faster than you think, while also relaxing gluten aggressively. Try proofing at room temperature (70–75°F). It’ll take longer, but the yeast will be stronger going into the oven and the gluten tighter. > > **3. Strengthen your dough before shaping — Since you’re working the dough again after the final rise, it needs more structural integrity to bounce back. Try adding a set or two of stretch-and-folds during your first bowl rise (every 30 min, grab and stretch the dough over itself 4 times). This builds gluten strength that survives the reshaping.** > > 1. Adjust hydration slightly downward — A slightly stiffer dough (reduce liquid by about 2 tablespoons) will hold its shape better when cut and arranged, and produce a chewier crumb. > > **5. Give the shaped pan a short, controlled rest — Rather than zero pan time or a full proof, try 20–30 minutes at room temperature only after shaping into the pan. This gives the cut surfaces time to relax and seal together without fully re-proofing into cakey territory.** > > ## My Best Recommended Sequence > > 1. First bowl rise at room temp until doubled (~90 min) > 2. Punch down, second bowl rise until doubled (~60 min) > 3. Cut into clumps, arrange in pan > 4. Cold retard in fridge overnight > 5. Remove from fridge, let sit 20 min while oven preheats > 6. Egg wash and bake > > This is almost certainly what Rosendorf’s or any professional kosher bakery is doing — high-volume bakeries rely on cold retarding to control scheduling, and it happens to produce exactly the texture you’re chasing. Rather than try all its time-consuming suggestions, I started with the bolded sections, which only add about 30 minutes to my baking routine, and they worked just fine. The various other options might also yield good results, and I may eventually try them. But this simple change, perhaps tweaked a little, yielded good enough results without changing everything about my Friday afternoon routine.