# Help Me Better Understand Gun Control Opposition **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 14, 2017, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939 "2017-06-14T15:22:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/21 "2017-06-14T17:05:35Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > Since we are in GQ, let’s get some basic facts straight. An assault rifle is a select fire weapon. That means that or is capable is semi automatic fire AND fully automatic fire. While it is possible to buy and own a fly automatic weapon it is not available to everyone. In order to own one you must have a Class 3 license which requires an in depth background check. If you pass that be sure you have between $12k to $250k to purchase one. > > There are also a very limited number of fully automatic weapons available. A law was passed in 1986 that makes it illegal possess an automatic weapon that was made after 1986. That means that there is a finite number of automatic weapons available, so it effectively puts ownership out of reach to the majority of citizens. That is GREAT information that i was not at all aware of… Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/22 "2017-06-14T17:08:40Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > There is no clear definition of an assault rifle. It is used as a political scare term, not a technical name for a type of gun. To ban assault rifles, you would first have to clearly define what they are. Right now, it seems very arbitrary what counts as an assault rifle or not. There is a very clear definition of an _assault rifle_: it is an autoloading rifle clambering an intermediate power cartridge capable of selective or fully automatic fire. As a weapon capable of cycling the action more than once per each trigger pull, it is restricted under the [National Firearms Act of 1934](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act) (requiring purchase of a Federal tax stamp and registration with the BATFE] as well as restriction or prohibition by state laws. An _assault weapon_, on the other hand, is a nebulously defined term often predicated on cosmetic features of the weapon and used carelessly by politicians and media often with the intent of exaggerating or emphasizing the power or capacity of the weapon. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To be cynical, the NRA isn’t really a lobby for gun owners. It’s a lobby for gun sellers. So it’s seeking to create an atmosphere where people will buy more guns. > > Principles that work towards gun sales: > > 1. Make the sale of guns and ammunition as easy as possible. > 2. Make sure criminals have access to guns so non-criminals buy guns to defend themselves from armed criminals. > 3. Convince people that gun seizures are imminent to encourage hoarding. This is exactly right, and is largely the reason I long ago ended my association with the NRA. As a practical matter, most gun control laws and proposals are ill-considered measures primarily designed primarily to showcase some politician’s desire to be seen doing “something” regardless of the practicality of implementation or effectiveness in preventing crime, and in some cases are expressly designed as gun prohibition laws under a transparent cover such as the farcical California “firing pin microstamping” law which prevents manufacturers from submitting new firearms, or even new options on existing lines of approved firearms onto the CA Roster of Firearms Certified for Sale. “Fingerprint trigger locks”, if they were a viable technology, would be adopted by law enforcement because of their very real concerns about firearm retention in a struggle with a perpetrator; in about 10% of police deaths due to shootings, the officer is shot with their own weapon. That no law enforcement agency has adopted this technology strongly indicates that it has not achieved sufficient reliability for practical use. All of that being said, it should be recognized that firearms are by virtue of their mechanism of operation, inherently hazardous devices with the potential to do harm. The majority of deaths due to shooting are not crimes at all but are accidencts and deliberate suicides which argues for better training, holding firearms owners responsible for securing their weapons, and addressing mental health as a serious public health issue rather than passing laws about arbitrary magazine capacity limits or bayonet mounting lugs. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/23 "2017-06-14T17:33:41Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > As a practical matter, most gun control laws and proposals are ill-considered measures primarily designed primarily to showcase some politician’s desire to be seen doing “something” regardless of the practicality of implementation or effectiveness in preventing crime, Agreed. Journalists are guilty of calling any long barrelled gun that will sell news an “assault rifle”. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/24 "2017-06-14T18:05:51Z")
To sum up, almost all gun control legislation that is proposed will do virtually nothing to achieved its stated goals, while increasing inconvenience and costs for those who don’t cause problems with guns. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/25 "2017-06-14T18:08:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Cite? The NRA wants to stop criminals from getting guns. As somebody recently pointed out: > [@DrDeth](#): > > The NRA is in favor of these and even supported a bill that would make them faster, cheaper and easier. Now think. If you were a criminal, what qualities would you like to see in a background check procedure? ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/26 "2017-06-14T18:08:52Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > To sum up, almost all gun control legislation that is proposed will do virtually nothing to achieved its stated goals, while increasing inconvenience and costs for those who don’t cause problems with guns. [![](https://i.imgur.com/ueu7x5T.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/ueu7x5T.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/27 "2017-06-14T18:11:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As somebody recently pointed out: > > Now think. If you were a criminal, what qualities would you like to see in a background check procedure? Ineffective, and not correct. But not faster, cheaper and easier. Since if the report doesnt come back in so many days, they can buy the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/28 "2017-06-14T18:14:09Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > It’s not being cynical, it’s being clearly inaccurate if the idea is that gun/ammo manufacturers drive the enormous political resistance to gun control in the US, of which the NRA is just one example. Another conceit of strongly anti-gun people which goes along with this is the idea ‘the NRA’ is the resistance itself. NRA members are a small % of the voters that won’t tolerate anti-gun politicians in too many states and Congressional districts for there to be strict (or even significantly stricter) federal gun control. > > The political non viability of national gun control in the US comes from gun owners. The NRA is a manifestation of that. The benefit to the relatively (market cap, sales relative to actually large industries) minuscule gun/ammo industry just correlates with that, doesn’t cause it to any significant degree. Right. Ask any beer drinker and he’ll tell you advertising campaigns have no influence on what beer he drinks. It’s just a coincidence that he objectively decided to drink the beer that has the largest advertising budget. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/29 "2017-06-14T18:41:05Z")
**Moderator Action** I think this thread has accomplished about as much as it can in GQ. Let’s move this to GD so that folks can debate the issue a bit, which I think will help the OP understand the issues a bit better. Moving thread from GQ to GD. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/30 "2017-06-14T18:46:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right. Ask any beer drinker and he’ll tell you advertising campaigns have no influence on what beer he drinks. It’s just a coincidence that he objectively decided to drink the beer that has the largest advertising budget. I drink whatever someone else is buying. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/31 "2017-06-14T19:08:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Right. Ask any beer drinker and he’ll tell you advertising campaigns have no influence on what beer he drinks. It’s just a coincidence that he objectively decided to drink the beer that has the largest advertising budget. Big flaw in that analogy: you’re talking about advertising’s influence on which brand of a type product a consumer buys. Here we are talking about whether the consumer thinks the whole type of product should even be legal. Big difference. You’ll find big national differences and differences over time in beer consumption per capita that don’t correlate with beer advertising, which is in any case omnipresent to eg. anyone who watches live sporting events on TV. There isn’t anything like that level of marketing for guns, or political positions on guns. Because of the other huge gap in your (though common) original reasoning: US gun/ammo makers are tiny companies in a tiny market compared to those selling beer, pick up trucks, or the influence of companies of $100’s billions (Apple, Google, Amazon) in market cap on political policies related to them. Just weak reasoning all around, sorry. National gun control is politically impossible in the US because of a large mass of US voters against it, who know their own self interest as well as any other groups of voters you want to name on any other issue. Are you easily duped into your political opinions? So why assume they are different? This kind of construction of yours though common is basically undemocratic. You really have to come with a workable system where wise people like you not ‘unduly’ influenced in their perception of their own interests get to override those who are. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/32 "2017-06-14T19:11:39Z")
> [@Shoeless](#): > > I understand the “slippery slope” line of reasoning, but the thing I can’t figure out is why it only ever seems to be applied to the Second Amendment. You don’t seem to hear the same outrage over asset forfeiture laws being a violation of the Fourth Amendment, for example. Because, with all of the other cases, the members of the government can only slip so far before they’ll be met with a bunch of people with guns. That option goes away when the item of government overreach is to start disarming the people. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/33 "2017-06-14T19:16:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > 1. Fingerprint trigger locks. Guns are extremely reliable machines. We’ve been perfecting them for hundreds of years. A well-designed, well-maintained gun has over a 99.999% chance of working when you need it to. And your life may one day depend on it working when you need it to. > > When you introduce something like an electronic fingerprint reader, you introduce many many more modes of failure. The batteries could fail. The electronics can fail. You could improperly use the fingerprint reader. Maybe your fingers are sweaty or dirty and it fails. Such a thing would increase the potential failure rate of the gun to fire by several orders of magnitude. And this would happen right when you needed it most, and when your life might depend on it. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > “Fingerprint trigger locks”, if they were a viable technology, would be adopted by law enforcement because of their very real concerns about firearm retention in a struggle with a perpetrator; in about 10% of police deaths due to shootings, the officer is shot with their own weapon. That no law enforcement agency has adopted this technology strongly indicates that it has not achieved sufficient reliability for practical use. All of that being said, it should be recognized that firearms are by virtue of their mechanism of operation, inherently hazardous devices with the potential to do harm. The majority of deaths due to shooting are not crimes at all but are accidencts and deliberate suicides which argues for better training, holding firearms owners responsible for securing their weapons, and addressing mental health as a serious public health issue rather than passing laws about arbitrary magazine capacity limits or bayonet mounting lugs. > > Stranger Fair enough, but why do the NRA and others oppose the manufacture and sale of such[accessories](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0503/Death-threats-stop-gun-store-from-selling-smart-gun.-Why) as fingerprint locks outside of regulations. shouldn’t the market place decide what’s good? mc ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/34 "2017-06-14T19:19:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Because, with all of the other cases, the members of the government can only slip so far before they’ll be met with a bunch of people with guns. That option goes away when the item of government overreach is to start disarming the people. But that’s just it. 1) That will never, ever happen and 2) If the government had got to the point of confiscating guns, then all they would have to do is pass an Amendment outlawing personal ownership of guns, and then all those Constitution loving gun owners would just hand them over 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/35 "2017-06-14T19:28:54Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Fair enough, but why do the NRA and others oppose the manufacture and sale of such[accessories](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2014/0503/Death-threats-stop-gun-store-from-selling-smart-gun.-Why) as fingerprint locks outside of regulations. shouldn’t the market place decide what’s good? Your article mentions why the NRA opposes it - > [@](#): > > But the NRA and many gun owners say it’s a government Trojan horse intended to open the door for laws that will mandate “smart” technology in new guns in order to identify gun owners – a notion that’s widely seen by gun owners as a threat to Second Amendment rights. especially if it becomes mandatory - > [@](#): > > New Jersey lawmakers have passed legislation that all handguns in the state be “personalized” three years after smart guns become available. Some US lawmakers are mulling similar legislation, according to the Washington Post. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/36 "2017-06-14T19:30:07Z")
Other people in this thread have covered it pretty well. “Assault weapon” is a made up term, and actual assault rifles are rare and not associated with violence. In my search I can find 2 (two) murders with legal fully automatic weapons _in the past 83 years_. There was some issues where some were illegally modified to be automatic, though the industry has since made that mostly impossible. Aside from that, I’m not convinced that automatic weapons are any more dangerous. That’s a Hollywood idea. They are more difficult to shoot accurately. Of the gun deaths in the US: - 2/3 are suicides - most of the remaining 1/3 victims are people who are involved in gangs or the drug trade - The remaining amount is legitimate random violence that is not - The majority of gun deaths are with handguns. Rifles only make a small percentage, and a smaller percentage of these rifles are “assault weapons.” In short, they aren’t any more effective at killing than any other rifle, and aren’t used very often either. Some politicians **have** said that they want to outlaw civilian ownership. Though it’s probably a minority opinion, but still most (D) politicians want to severely restrict civilian ownership while doing nothing about actual crime. California just passed a bunch of laws which will have zero effect on crime and make zero sense but serve to make it more difficult and expensive for people who obey the law. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > To be cynical, the NRA isn’t really a lobby for gun owners. It’s a lobby for gun sellers. If that’s true they’re doing an awful job at it. About 9-10% of their revenue comes from advertising for gun manufacturers. Another small percentage (\<5%) comes from voluntary donations by manufacturers and retailers (e.g. round up your purchase, or donating x% to NRA). Some 75% of their revenue is from member dues or voluntary personal donations. > [@Shoeless](#): > > I understand the “slippery slope” line of reasoning, but the thing I can’t figure out is why it only ever seems to be applied to the Second Amendment. You don’t seem to hear the same outrage over asset forfeiture laws being a violation of the Fourth Amendment, for example. There’s no 4th amendment specific lobby. Unless you count the ACLU et al., who by the way agree with the NRA that the “allowing the mentally ill to buy guns” canard from last year was a civil rights violation. The house Democrats were essentially doing a sit-in for Bush administration-style profiling. > [@Asuka](#): > > The reason why people oppose “Smart gun” technology is because in most states that pass such laws promoting them they’re basing it on technology that still really hasn’t left the prototype stage yet assuming full scale production of them will happen within 3 years, and this was 2 years ago when a lot of these laws were being considered. My cell phone fingerprint detector refuses to work when my hands are \*slightly \*damp. If I am ever in the situation where I need to shoot somebody (I hope not), you can bet I’d be sweating buckets. Now the technology might be more sophisticated, but it’s not something I’d trust. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/37 "2017-06-14T19:38:21Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your article mentions why the NRA opposes it - > especially if it becomes mandatory - > > Regards, > Shodan Do you and others think that death threats are an exceptable way of influencing the marketplace? shouldn’t manufacturers be free to produce products and consumers be free to not purchase them? mc ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/38 "2017-06-14T19:39:41Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > [Journalist's Guide to Firearms Identification - Imgur](http://i.imgur.com/ueu7x5T.jpg) Cool! I didn’t know Glock made a [potato gun](http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/b6/98/53/b69853c5ec49d4a0f2b7689b9e9002f3.jpg)! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/39 "2017-06-14T19:42:32Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Do you and others think that death threats are an exceptable way of influencing the marketplace? > shouldn’t manufacturers be free to produce products and consumers be free to not purchase them? > > mc Sure, but there’s always a few idiots who hide behind anonymity to make baseless threats. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939/40 "2017-06-14T19:48:30Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > My cell phone fingerprint detector refuses to work when my hands are \*slightly \*damp. If I am ever in the situation where I need to shoot somebody (I hope not), you can bet I’d be sweating buckets. Now the technology might be more sophisticated, but it’s not something I’d trust. then you don’t have to, but what if I want to? mc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-better-understand-gun-control-opposition/788939.md?page=3)