# Help me convince my friend that Quakers are not a cult. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 24, 2018, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810 "2018-09-24T02:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/21 "2018-09-24T14:59:48Z")
> [@Sunny\_Daze](#): > > . . . > Are you a “silent” Quaker? I’m trying to fill in the blanks on what part he finds objectionable. We are Liberal (unprogrammed, no Leader per se). You are right, that may be an important point to him. > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > My son is getting involved with something that has certain cultlike qualities so I hav been boning up on this. Here’s one thing I found. > . . . > The other thing was to look at the organization chart. If it was an inverted T, with one guy (or gal) at the top, and then the next level was way down, instructors maybe, that was a sign. If there are secrets that aren’t revealed until you’re way into it (like Operating Thetan III), that’s a sign. Again, not applicable to Quakers. > > Well, as far as I know. I’m sorry to hear about your son. One of my friends got caught up in a particularly extreme Opus Dei group, and it was frightening. It just completely took over his life. The most powerful thing we did was invite him out with us. Just getting away from the group to other environments and conversational topics was enormously helpful. In the end it was a Franciscan Priest who helped him the most though. As someone already pointed out, we have the flattest org chart imaginable, but maybe he doesn’t know that. I’ll make the point. As for secrets, I sure hope not!! :eek: > [@kopek](#): > > . . . Although I am a little surprised at a Quaker implying that the Amish branch of the Old Order _can_ be thought of as a cult. > . . . I do not mean to imply that they ARE alike. But many people do ask about my car and my modern clothing when they find out I am Quaker. The picture in their head is the one from the oatmeal box. :rolleyes: > [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > TruCelt’s friend’s suspiciousness seems to arise not from fundamentalism but hostility to religion so bringing up Nixon would likely backfire. > TruCelt, > > I see the problem you may have in that the more you insist and argue that it’s not a cult, the more, to a mind primed to see it as a cult, you will be strengthening his confirmation bias. > . . . Trimmed for length, but several good points here, thank you. And yes, the primary problem I’m having is that merely by arguing I am strengthening his concern. I think one thing I need to be careful of is not to put any emotion into the argument. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > He thinks this might lead to you retiring early and doing charitable stuff for the rest of your life? We grew up in Fairfax, VA. Much. Is. Expected. Excellence and high achievement are only a starting point, and any sign of slacking off is to be excoriated. Now, in my friend group we don’t do this to each other. But that is our culture of origin and it continues to reverberate. Charitable work is indeed a requirement, but in addition to a successful career, never instead. And this may be part of the problem. As some of you already know, over the past eight years I have been through a hellish custody dispute that cleaned me out and bankrupted me. At 50, despite having the more successful career among my childhood cohort, I am living with friends and still fighting to spend time with my child. After thinking it over last night, it may be that I haven’t shared enough of these details with him, so he conflates my financial situation with my change in religion. I probably need to sit him down and really fill him in on what I’ve been through. Blech. Thank you all so much for your suggestions. They’ve been enormously helpful! ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/22 "2018-09-24T15:15:29Z")
We’ve had this discussion about cults in a Mormonism thread, but I’ll bring out my ‘cult’ checklist again: > [@](#): > > The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. > > ‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. > > ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). > > ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry�or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). > > ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar�or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity). > > ‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. > > ‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). > > ‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities). > > ‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. > > ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. > > ‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members. > > ‪ The group is preoccupied with making money. > > ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities. > > ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members. > > ‪ The most loyal members (the �true believers�) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group. Personally, I’m not sure if Quakers check more than a couple of them and maybe not any at all. They’re about the least cult-like religion you’re ever going to find. IMHO, the Rotary Club checks off more ‘cult’ checkboxes than Quakers, but you can answer the checkboxes for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![FairyChatMom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fairychatmom/32/22080_2.png) [@FairyChatMom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FairyChatMom)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/23 "2018-09-24T15:29:22Z")
I was raised Catholic. My husband was raised Baptist. When we first met, he told me he’d been taught that Catholicism was a cult. I was taught that only Catholics could go to heaven. Neither of us belong to any organized religious group. It is rather disturbing how many “religious” folk seem to thrive on an “us vs. them” belief system. So much for “love one another” and that nonsense… :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/24 "2018-09-24T16:09:38Z")
What do you all think about just giving him a link to this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/25 "2018-09-24T16:35:10Z")
I’m a big fan of the [Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame](http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html), or ABCDEF. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/26 "2018-09-24T16:35:15Z")
Maybe show him a carton of oatmeal. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/27 "2018-09-24T18:59:49Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > What do you all think about just giving him a link to this thread? Best idea yet! ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/28 "2018-09-24T19:00:52Z")
You don’t think it’s a cult because they haven’t pulled you onto any committees yet. That’s how we get you. Everything seems great, and then, just like that, you’re on Ministry and Oversight, talking about who is bringing Susan groceries after her foot surgery. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/29 "2018-09-24T19:32:08Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > You don’t think it’s a cult because they haven’t pulled you onto any committees yet. That’s how we get you. Everything seems great, and then, just like that, you’re on Ministry and Oversight, talking about who is bringing Susan groceries after her foot surgery. :smack: Honey, I’m on Hospitality. They’ve got me cooking for 25-30 people once a month\*, and I haven’t even officially joined yet! ROFL I also volunteer with a local homeless mission that we support, cooking and staying overnight when they need a chaperone. - I love to cook and am enjoying every minute of it! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/30 "2018-09-24T20:59:13Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Honey, I’m on Hospitality. They’ve got me cooking for 25-30 people once a month\*, and I haven’t even officially joined yet! ROFL > > I also volunteer with a local homeless mission that we support, cooking and staying overnight when they need a chaperone. Well there you go, you obviously **are** some kind of bizarro cult freak. Why aren’t you telling the 25-30 people to sign up for a commercial meal delivery service and scolding the homeless about bootstrapping their way out of poverty, like a **real** civic-minded American churchperson? True religion is about your own well-being, not getting all tangled up with sad underprivileged losers. #MAGA – **Kimstu** , veteran of Quaker high school and college, lifelong atheist and cult avoider if you don’t count fiber arts P.S. Not that educational institutions constitute an automatic guarantee of respectability, but have you tried pointing out to your friend the large number of venerable [Society of Friends-founded and/or -affiliated colleges and universities](https://quakerfahe.com/quaker-colleges-universities-and-study-centers/) and [primary and secondary Friends Schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Friends_schools#United_States) in the United States? Does he imagine that all the graduates of, say, Sidwell Friends School in D.C. (where the Obamas’ daughters went) or Guilford College are secret cult members? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/31 "2018-09-24T21:12:49Z")
Maybe point out, I f it was a cult, there would definitely be someone getting between you and him, and yet your fellow quakers are indifferent. Not very cult like. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/32 "2018-09-24T21:41:48Z")
The most un-cult-like religion around, IMHO. If I were ever to adopt a religion it would be between Quakerism and Unitarianism, although there is no chance I would. BTW, although Tricky Dick was nominally a Quaker, there is hardly any resemblance between the west coast and east coast versions. The former was more like a standard religion, with pastors, sermons, and all that shit. The east coast version has none of that, just people getting together and meditating until one of them is moved to speak. At least that is my basically uninformed impression. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/33 "2018-09-24T22:00:32Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The most un-cult-like religion around, IMHO. If I were ever to adopt a religion it would be between Quakerism and Unitarianism, although there is no chance I would. BTW, although Tricky Dick was nominally a Quaker, there is hardly any resemblance between the west coast and east coast versions. The former was more like a standard religion, with pastors, sermons, and all that shit. The east coast version has none of that, just people getting together and meditating until one of them is moved to speak. At least that is my basically uninformed impression. My experience with the west coast version (northern CA) is that it is just like the east coast version. You just go sit in a room with some people and occasionally somebody stands up and says something but often, no. Then you do stuff like nonviolence and gardening and helping the homeless. Really weird. ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/34 "2018-09-24T22:18:30Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Ask him to define what does he mean by cult, then compare his definition to your actual beliefs and customs. This. If (for example) he defines any church that is not in communion with the Bishop of Rome as a cult, then the Society of Friends is a cult. And there’s no need for further discussion. He’s going to think you’re in a cult. But whatever his definition, you can run through what he says and see whether or not the Quakers fit. Even if he does end up thinking you’re a cultist, you may be able to get him to look up some stuff about Quakers and that might allay his fears. Or you may be able to ask him what his fears are about being in a cult (e.g., they’ll take all your money and make you dress funny), you may be able to show that that specific fear isn’t going to come true. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2018, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810/35 "2018-09-24T22:47:26Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > The most un-cult-like religion around, IMHO. If I were ever to adopt a religion it would be between Quakerism and Unitarianism, although there is no chance I would. BTW, although Tricky Dick was nominally a Quaker, there is hardly any resemblance between the west coast and east coast versions. The former was more like a standard religion, with pastors, sermons, and all that shit. The east coast version has none of that, just people getting together and meditating until one of them is moved to speak. At least that is my basically uninformed impression. I wouldn’t really call it an east/west split. I know plenty of folks from unprogrammed meetings on the west coast (e.g. [Pacific Yearly Meeting - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Yearly_Meeting)). And Baltimore yearly meeting is associated with both FGC _and_ FUM, the same FUM the reaffirmed the [Richmond Declaration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Declaration)a decade or so back. Not that you could tell from going to the meeting in DC, even though it’s part of BYM. The dual association is more an artifact of the 19th century schism that has since been resolved – individual meetings retain their own character. But BYM’s Faith and Practice is much more Jesusy than Philly’s (although I haven’t read the new PYM 2017 revision.) Anyway, to the OP, if the friend reached this position through misinformation, incomplete information, and reason, then information and reason can correct him. If it’s all feels, you might be out of luck. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-convince-my-friend-that-quakers-are-not-a-cult/821810.md?page=1)