# Help me debunk a claim made by my conspiracy theorist friend **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 13, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171 "2023-01-13T15:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/21 "2023-01-13T17:46:00Z")
I think this is one of those “Can’t use reason” with unreasonable people situations. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/22 "2023-01-13T17:49:55Z")
“Good parrot! Want a cracker?” ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/23 "2023-01-13T17:50:05Z")
> [@garygnu](#): > > I think this is one of those “Can’t use reason” with unreasonable people situations. Likely so; the phrase I like is, “you can’t reason someone out of a position that they weren’t reasoned into.” ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/24 "2023-01-13T19:32:17Z")
Sadly, I had a similar experience with a relative. He also became ever more obsessed with these things “he knows” and incapable of having a discussion without bringing these things up. And he would get really angry when I would fail to agree with him. I tried suggesting that we avoid those topics. He agreed with that approach, but just couldn’t help himself. I don’t want to get into one our political fights, but Obama this or Biden that. I was supposed to just let him say his piece while biting my tongue. Eventually that became a relationship that wasn’t worth having. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/25 "2023-01-13T20:37:23Z")
This “died suddenly” thing is one of the more annoying claims on social media lately. Of course it’s always exaggerated even more than the original claim - like “1500 young world-class athletes.” When pressed for sources or even names (I think I would recognize a few world class athletes), the results usually include people who didn’t even died, those who died from other causes including accidents, and “young” athletes who are old and obese drug abusers. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/26 "2023-01-13T20:51:45Z")
If he fears death himself because vaccines + being an athlete brings sudden cardiac arrest he can easily avoid it by taking the vaccine and giving up sport. Stop being an athlete! ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/27 "2023-01-13T21:06:25Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > It’s a near-certainty that they’re basing this on the new CT film “Died Suddenly”, which is just about as reliable as any other CT film, that being, _not very_. There have been a lot of stories debunking the claims made in this film, so you’d likely find good arguments there. @Telemark 's [cite](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-covid-vaccines-athlete-deaths-1500-989195878254) says that Tucker Carlson 'reported" it Tuesday night. > [@](#): > > “Cardiologist Peter McCullough and researcher Panagis Polykretis looked into this trend in Europe, European sports leagues. They found that prior to COVID and the COVID-19 vaccines there were roughly 29 cardiac arrests in those European sports leagues per year,” Fox’s Tucker Carlson claimed in a segment Tuesday night. “Since the vax campaign began, there have been more than 1,500 total cardiac arrests in those leagues and two-thirds of those were fatal.” > > Carlson was in fact referencing a letter, not a rigorous study, that McCullough and Polykretis published in a Scandinavian journal in late 2022. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/28 "2023-01-13T22:02:41Z")
And what would happen is that since _this year_ there were four deaths of young athletes, the CT theorist would say, “But last year there were _three_. See, that’s a 33% increase!” ---
**Author:** ![gnarator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gnarator/32/8266_2.png) [@gnarator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnarator)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/29 "2023-01-13T22:19:53Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > You can tell because it is overflowing with facts and data Everyone knows facts have a liberal bias. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2023, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/30 "2023-01-14T01:15:39Z")
I once referenced The Economist, and the person with whom I was speaking called it “leftist communist propaganda” While I acknowledge The Economist is fairly liberal (American meaning) when it comes to culture issues, it’s one giant love letter to capitalism, open markets, globalism, and low-regulation. I told him it was clear he’d never read the economist. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/31 "2023-01-15T03:51:50Z")
> **[Jet Fuel](https://xkcd.com/966/)** > > The 'controlled demolition' theory was concocted by the government to distract us. '9/11 was an inside job' was an inside job! ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/32 "2023-01-15T10:45:03Z")
Remember, that which is claimed without evidence can be _dismissed_ without evidence. You don’t have to prove it is wrong, it is for them to prove it is true. Until your friend can put forward reliable evidence there is simply nothing to discuss. Also, my go to in that situation (knowing that I’m possibly speaking with a CT believer) is to ask what form of evidence would cause them to change their mind. If they are unable or unwilling to even engage in _that_ discussion then walk away from the subject, you aren’t going to make any progress on it. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/33 "2023-01-15T13:37:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Until your friend can put forward reliable evidence there is simply nothing to discuss. He provided this “evidence”: > [Here’s](https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/2/frontlinenews/500-increase-in-sudden-cardiac-and-unexplained-deaths-among-fifa-athletes-in-2021/) an article from 2021 showing a 5 fold increase in young athletes compared to previous years. I haven’t had time to look in to it, but am guessing it’s nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/34 "2023-01-15T14:33:10Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > I haven’t had time to look in to it, but am guessing it’s nonsense. It may or may not be nonsense but in any case I see no mention of the covid vaccine in that article so It is hard to see why he is pinning it on that specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/35 "2023-01-15T15:39:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > > > Until your friend can put forward reliable evidence there is simply nothing to discuss. > > He provided this “evidence”: > > > [Here’s](https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/2/frontlinenews/500-increase-in-sudden-cardiac-and-unexplained-deaths-among-fifa-athletes-in-2021/) an article from 2021 showing a 5 fold increase in young athletes compared to previous years. > > I haven’t had time to look in to it, but am guessing it’s nonsense. No idea what sort of reputation “Real Time News” has in Israel, but since the article is in Hebrew, I’ll take a wild guess that he hasn’t read it but is depending on secondary sources to interpret it. Note that the link is to a discussion on “America’s Frontline Doctors”, headed by [Simone Gold](https://www.thedailybeast.com/covid-misinformation-group-americas-frontline-doctors-implodes-over-dr-simone-golds-extravagant-spending) (convicted for her role in the January 6th Capitol riot) and featuring such distinguished physicians as Stella Immanuel, the “demon sperm” lady. Personally, I’d want to see peer-reviewed published data before trusting such sources, but that’s how I roll. [Link to article](http://theathletic.com/3501794/2022/08/13/eriksen-christian-heart-manchester/) discussing one of those on-field athlete collapses, which references similar cardiac incidents occurring in 1977, 2012 and 2018, i.e. before the pandemic and use of Covid-19 vaccines. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/36 "2023-01-15T17:53:51Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > [Here’s](https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/2/frontlinenews/500-increase-in-sudden-cardiac-and-unexplained-deaths-among-fifa-athletes-in-2021/) an article from 2021 showing a 5 fold increase in young athletes compared to previous years. Tell your friend that Shape-shifting Lizard people exist everywhere. [Here is proof](https://www.academicisrael.com/en/lizard-people-theory-reptilian-conspiracy-theory/) - if it’s on the internet it is true. > the lizard people control the world through politicians among other things, such as the iluminati and the financial system. Bombard him with shape shifting lizard people theories and links every time he brings up his conspiracy theory. Tell him that THEY are responsible for these athlete deaths. Mock him if he does not believe you. It won’t change his mind even a little bit, but it might be fun. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/37 "2023-01-15T18:14:33Z")
What’s really sad about all of this is that the Covid vaccine (and, specifically, the mRNA technology it utilized) is being applied to cancer research. We may eventually come up with vaccines for some common cancers, and yet there’s an entire faction of our society who is inexplicably trying to derail that progress. > [@](#): > > Unlike traditional vaccines, which inject part or all of a virus (or other pathogen) into the body to provoke an immune response, mRNA shots work by injecting genetic instructions and allowing the body to make part of the virus itself. The process is more flexible, simpler and much faster than traditional methods and can be swiftly edited to adapt to real-world changes to the virus. The field enjoyed little success and sporadic interest among scientists until the Covid-19 pandemic, when a number of highly successful vaccines were rapidly built and successfully deployed using the technology, notably from Moderna and Pfizer and BioNTech. The stellar takeoff of these vaccines during the pandemic [revitalized](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/06/29/sanofi-is-injecting-almost-half-a-billion-dollars-each-year-into-mrna-tech-driving-pfizer-moderna-covid-shots/?sh=41fd25d646f3) interest in the field and pharma giants have been ramping up efforts to deploy it against other threats like [flu](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2022/09/14/mrna-flu-shot-moves-forward-as-pfizer-launches-late-stage-trial-builds-on-covid-vaccine-success/?sh=acbda5c599c0), HIV, [malaria](https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/hunting-perfect-protein-malaria-mrna-vaccine), [shingles](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2022/01/05/pfizer-biontech-will-develop-mrna-shingles-vaccine-after-covid-19-shot-success/?sh=765c62a71d7b) and [cancer](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2022/04/11/mrna-cancer-treatment-covid-vaccine-giant-biontech-touts-promising-early-data/?sh=69386467a339) ever since. > **[Cancer Vaccine Trials—Using Same mRNA Tech Behind Covid Shots—Could Launch In...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2023/01/06/cancer-vaccine-trials-using-same-mrna-tech-behind-covid-shots-could-launch-in-uk-this-september/amp/)** > > BioNTech, which worked with Pfizer to build an mRNA Covid vaccine, has partnered with the U.K. to turn the technology towards cancer and plans to treat 10,000 people by 2030. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/38 "2023-01-15T18:21:52Z")
Not having read the prior replies … I’d first suggest that the underlying premise be validated: has there been an increase in _the rate at which_ young athletes are dying in the last few years? If no, then … stop 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/39 "2023-01-15T19:16:05Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > We may eventually come up with vaccines for some common cancers, and yet there’s an entire faction of our society who is inexplicably trying to derail that progress. We actually have a vaccine for one kind of cancer - cervical cancer is strongly tied to HPV, and we have a vaccine for that. But since HPV is an STD, a lot of religious parents don’t want their darlings to get it. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/40 "2023-01-15T19:24:11Z")
Many things happened about the time COVID vaccines became available. Personally, I blame the rise of cardiac arrests on the shortage of toilet paper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171.md?page=3)