# Help me debunk a claim made by my conspiracy theorist friend **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 13, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171 "2023-01-13T15:13:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/41 "2023-01-15T19:34:39Z")
In “did my own research” this morning. I found reputable cites that, not vaccines, but _Covid 19_ itself is causing the “increase” in young people’s deaths from heart attacks. Whether or not it’s true, it’s telling how the anti-vaxxers don’t consider that. It’s as valid a theory as theirs, but doesn’t fit what they already want to believe. I wish I could understand the 1000 fold increase in anti-vaxxers, probably a lot of whom used to get their yearly flu shot. It makes no damn sense! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/42 "2023-01-15T22:56:18Z")
It makes perfect sense. Any vaccine will have rare side effects. If you vaccinate a billion people, you will have a LOT of injured people. In the age of social media, most of them will make themselves known and their stories personalized. If a vax harms one person in 100,000, and you give it to a billion people, that’s 10,000 harmed people. In the past, they would happen here or there, but never hear about each other and the public wouldn’t hear about them. Now they are all on social media screaming that the vax kills. It doesn’t help that public health experts have repeatedly lied and gaslit the public, destroying trust in authority. That always allows conspiracy theories to flourish. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/43 "2023-01-16T00:33:57Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Not having read the prior replies … I’d first suggest that the underlying premise be validated: has there been an increase in _the rate at which_ young athletes are dying in the last few years? @Telemark’s excellent [cite](https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-covid-vaccines-athlete-deaths-1500-989195878254) back in post #4 thoroughly debunks it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/44 "2023-01-16T00:37:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It doesn’t help that public health experts have repeatedly lied and gaslit the public, destroying trust in authority. “Gaslighting” is the latest go-to term used by antivaxers. > **[If 2022 was the "year of the gaslighter," expect a lot more gaslighting in 2023](https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2023/01/09/year-of-gaslighting/)** > > An antivaxxer declared 2022 the "year of the gaslighter," a case of pure projection. 2023 looks to hold a lot more gaslighting in store. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/45 "2023-01-16T01:16:36Z")
‘Gaslighting’ has been a term used by all sides for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/46 "2023-01-16T01:28:01Z")
Thats why theyre trying to get rid of gaslighting stoves. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/47 "2023-01-16T01:30:47Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Many things happened about the time COVID vaccines became available. Personally, I blame the rise of cardiac arrests on the shortage of toilet paper. It’s certainly true that a lot more people started dying _about_ the time COVID vaccines became available. About a year before, wasn’t it? Exacerbating the toilet paper shortage, people were probably dying of stress and fear at the prospect of future vaccination. ---
**Author:** ![SuntanLotion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suntanlotion/32/16165_2.png) [@SuntanLotion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuntanLotion)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/48 "2023-01-16T01:39:07Z")
Theres someone on twitter saying Michelle Obama’s book gives the clue in plain sight. Becoming Michelle. Yeah, some crazy people think shes a man. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/49 "2023-01-16T12:41:43Z")
> [@Zyada](#): > > We actually have a vaccine for one kind of cancer - cervical cancer is strongly tied to HPV, and we have a vaccine for that. And it resulted in a massive drop in cervical cancer cases over the past decade. HPV vaccination rates may have even reached herd immunity levels. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/50 "2023-01-16T13:16:39Z")
_Herd_ immunity, you say? Sheeple, I tell you, them all! It’s in the very name, for Pasteur’s sake! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/51 "2023-01-16T14:26:38Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > No idea what sort of reputation “Real Time News” has in Israel. They’re antivaxxers; I’ve encountered them before. They are in no way, shape or form a legitimate news organization. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/52 "2023-01-16T17:08:15Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I wish I could understand the 1000 fold increase in anti-vaxxers, probably a lot of whom used to get their yearly flu shot. It makes no damn sense! Politics. A certain political wing found it advantageous to push a certain narrative, and like with lots of such things, they lost control of the tiger they were trying to ride. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/53 "2023-01-16T17:13:49Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > they lost control of the tiger they were trying to ride. But are there really that many people that can’t see that “I get a yearly vaccine for the flu, and I don’t get sick, and I don’t die so I guess that’s good”, and yet think “covid vaccine is evil, bad and thousands people are dropping like flies in the middle of sports games and the MSM is covering it up, and besides I never get sick” and not see the contradiction? I mean we like to joke, one of us even used the term “Marching Morons”, 🙂 but people can’t really be that stupid, can they? Please say no. How do they function? Literally!How do they find their way home every day? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/54 "2023-01-16T17:16:08Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > people can’t really be that stupid, can they? Millennia of human history indicate that they can indeed be that stupid. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > How do they function? Usually by having the consequences of their stupidity fall on others (by luck or design). ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/55 "2023-01-16T17:21:28Z")
You can’t help but wonder about anti-vaxxers encouraging their supporters to do something (skip vaccinations) that makes it more likely that they will die. How can that be a winning political strategy? The only answer that i can see is stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/56 "2023-01-16T17:23:06Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Usually by having the consequences of their stupidity fall on others Usually! I know two people at work who didn’t get vaccinated. People with masters degrees, fer cripes sake! They died of covid. Did it make any of my other unvaccinated coworkers wise up? Of course not. These are people that understand cause and effect, they understand science and engineering! I just don’t see how politics trumps (ugh) their own rational minds. Do I need to start double checking their computational fluid dynamics results? Their stress analyses? Maybe they decided that zero doesn’t really exist, or Pi is 22/7. Who knows! ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/57 "2023-01-16T17:25:56Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I mean we like to joke, one of us even used the term “Marching Morons”, 🙂 but people can’t really be that stupid, can they? Please say no. How do they function? Literally!How do they find their way home every day? Well, first off, there were a lot of stupid people who believed that about flu vaccines and other vaccines pre-pandemic, so we’re starting with a well-established base line of stupid people. Then, the COVID vaccines are using new technologies, so some of the people who weren’t stupid enough to believe this about old types of vaccines are stupid enough to be convinced by arguments that “These new vaccines are different, this isn’t the measles vaccine your mom gave you!” This new crop of stupid people is ripe for exploitation by the old crop of stupid people, who are having a field day with “I told you so! Vaccines are a menace!” And then add to this, the cohort of stupid people who might not really believe this, but who will pretend to believe it for political reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/58 "2023-01-16T17:28:46Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > How can that be a winning political strategy? In Arizona at least, it literally isn’t. I think the state death total from covid is about 32K. If those unvaccinated republicans hadn’t died, Scary Kari might be governor. Arizona’s national shame of a conressman Biggs is always complaining about covid precautions. I’ve started encouraging his fans to not get vaccinated and have large parties with each other, They told me I was “wishing death”, I said I was just allowing them the freedom to go to hell in their own way. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/59 "2023-01-16T17:38:34Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Arizona’s national shame of a conressman Biggs is always complaining about covid precautions. I’ve started encouraging his fans to not get vaccinated and have large parties with each other, They told me I was “wishing death” And that’s the kind of cognitive dissonance that lets them take one vaccine, but refuse another. “We hate restrictions!” “Okay, go nuts, no restrictions.” “Why are you wishing death on us?!?!?” You can’t argue rationally with people who can make those kinds of mental pivots. ---
**Author:** ![tofor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tofor/32/13727_2.png) [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2023, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171/60 "2023-01-16T17:44:11Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > In Arizona at least, it literally isn’t. I think the state death total from covid is about 32K. If those unvaccinated republicans hadn’t died, Scary Kari might be governor. Kari Lake lost by about 17k votes. If 32k total people died of COVID, then in order for your assertion to be true, about half of _all covid deaths_ in the state would need to be: 1. Republican And 2. Unvaccinated And 3. Old enough to vote And 4. Died _after_ the vaccine was available And 5. Not have died if vaccinated And 6. Would actually have voted on election day I don’t think Kari Lake lost because her voters are dead due to vaccine conspiracy theories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-a-claim-made-by-my-conspiracy-theorist-friend/978171.md?page=4)