# Help me debunk this chart, please (Pres./Cong. "Lifetime Salaries") **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 31, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859 "2013-01-31T01:06:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/1 "2013-01-31T01:06:20Z")
I’m sure all of us who have seen a political posting on Facebook have seen the numbers in the following chart: > [@](#): > > WAGES > > Salary of retired US Presidents…$450,000 FOR LIFE > Salary of House/Senate members…$174,000 FOR LIFE > Salary of Speaker of the House…$223,500 FOR LIFE > Salary of Majority/Minority Leaders…$194,400 FOR LIFE > > Average salary of a soldier DEPLOYED IN AFGHANISTAN …$38,000 > > Average income for Seniors on Social Security …$12,000 > > I think we found where the cuts should be made! > > If you agree…Pass it on! In a fit of goodwill toward the acquaintance who posted that, I responded with a request that she stop sharing it, on the grounds that it is so stuffed with inaccuracies that is is useless for making any kind of social or political point. I received a response from a third party who took extreme umbrage at my request, as follows: > [@](#): > > might I ask what part of this post you deem inaccurate? The presidents’ salary? Senators? Speaker? Minority/Majority leaders? I would suggest that you do a little searching before you ask Barbara to refrain from posting ACCURATE information for her friends and family to read…she wants them to know the TRUTH! Kind of an anomoly in this administration but just for you, I’ll give you the link… [Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years](http://www.tax-freedom.com/The_Congressional_Pension_Plan.htm) I replied to her with the following: > [@](#): > > To begin with, every place where it says “FOR LIFE” is nonsense. Just as a f’rinstance, Nancy Pelosi was once Speaker of the House. Stipulating, for the sake of argument, that she was paid $223.5K per annum between 01-04-2007 and 01-03-2011, your pearl-clutching chart above appears to be inviting me to accept that she is still getting it, even as John Boehner holds the Speaker’s gavel. > > To the extent that those numbers have any validity at all, that validity only holds while the officials in question hold the office to which they were elected. Thus, while the President, per 3 USC Sec. 102 draws $400K plus an expense allowance of UP TO $50K “to assist in defraying expenses relating to or resulting from the discharge of his official duties”. > > The President’s pension is statutorily set at the same level as a current Cabinet secretary (currently $199,700). > > I may be back later with corrections about what Representatives and Senators, earn ^H^H^H^H are paid, post-service. You may take it as read that I will not be using your link as the source for anything I come up with. > > Feel free to amuse yourself with the following while you wait. [Congressional Pensions | Snopes.com](http://www.snopes.com/politics/socialsecurity/pensions.asp) Now, I managed to find the U.S. Code information wrt the President’s salary on my own, but I’d like to find a similar citation for the Congressional/Senatorial salaries. Can anybody help me out? Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/2 "2013-01-31T01:59:49Z")
Another thing to consider is this: How much would cutting pensions actually help? For example, take the case of the retired presidents. There are only four living retired presidents. That’s $1,800,000 total. Which is enough to pay for about 47 soldiers, if the figures indicated are correct. So even if we got rid of president’s pensions entirely, it would make no signficant different in the Pentagon budget. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/3 "2013-01-31T03:33:42Z")
The link in the quote to the Tax Freedom web page contains a link to [about.com](http://about.com) which directly contradicts the Tax Freedom assertions. It says clearly that member of Congress are under the same retirement plan as all Federal employees, and that their retirement by law cannot exceed 80% of their salary. The [about.com](http://about.com) page also states that of 413 retired members, 290 had pensions averaging $60,000, and 192 had pensions averaging $36k. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/4 "2013-01-31T04:46:52Z")
The current presidential pension is [$199,700](http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RS20115.pdf) (PDF), not $450,000: > [@](#): > > Upon leaving office, the President receives a pension that is equal to the salary for Level I of the Executive Schedule ($199,700, salary frozen at January 2010 rate). At this rate, the pension is currently $300 short of being one-half of the President’s current salary. ETA: Never mind, I see you had that already. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/5 "2013-01-31T08:45:16Z")
Just remind her that those independently wealthy enough to not take a salary in office rarely tend to be concerned about the salaries of US army personnel and essentially never want to preserve or increase social security expenditure. See [here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoSaXmEsFHY) for instance. ---
**Author:** ![jonesj2205](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecc23a/32.png) [@jonesj2205](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonesj2205)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/6 "2013-01-31T10:49:28Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The [about.com](http://about.com) page also states that of 413 retired members, 290 had pensions averaging $60,000, and 192 had pensions averaging $36k. Second number should be 123 had pensions averaging $36K. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/7 "2013-01-31T13:29:03Z")
Oops. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/8 "2013-01-31T14:25:10Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > Another thing to consider is this: How much would cutting pensions actually help? For example, take the case of the retired presidents. There are only four living retired presidents. That’s $1,800,000 total. Which is enough to pay for about 47 soldiers, if the figures indicated are correct. So even if we got rid of president’s pensions entirely, it would make no signficant different in the Pentagon budget. This is the real point that needs to be made. It is a really stupid argument, because even if the president and congresspeople were paid squat, ever, it would have an absolutely negligible effect on the national budget. In any case, I think it is right, proper, and good policy that the president and congresspeople should be reasonably well paid for the important jobs they do (albeit not always well), and these numbers are nothing remotely like the obscenely large amounts that many corporate CEOs (and even lesser corporate officers) get to pay themselves. Frankly, quibbling over the amounts, or even over the truth of the “FOR LIFE!” claim, is not such a great thing, because it only serves to distract attention from the underlying stupidity of the argument, which itself functions to divert people from thinking about, and trying to understand, the real economic problems we face, and the real options we have for trying to deal with them. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/9 "2013-01-31T16:53:14Z")
Googling, the average SS benefit is closer to 14k a year. Plus, that’s only SS, which only accounts for about 40% of income of people who receive SS benefits, so that one sentence of the email is wrong twice. But yea, what **njitt** said. The email would be stupid even if the numbers were right. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/10 "2013-01-31T17:12:00Z")
Plus Congressmen suffer with the Social Security offset so like teachers they do not get the full retirement they should be entitled to. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/11 "2013-01-31T17:18:30Z")
I would also take issue with the average pay of a soldier in Afghanistan. I just ran some numbers for a hypothetical married 22-year-old E-4 in the army, stationed at Ft. Hood, TX, who enlisted when he was 18: $27,660.24 - Base Pay $12,204.00 - BA $4,227.24 - BAS $2,700 - IDP (combat pay) $3,000 FSP (family separation pay) Comes to a total of $49,791.48/yr, and most of that is tax free when he’s deployed. Keep in mind that this is for a 22-year-old, non-college educated infantryman, and we’re comparing his salary to guys in their 50s and 60s who probably have law degrees. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/12 "2013-01-31T18:35:58Z")
People who post those sort of charts, thinking they are clever, are typically the sort of morons who are too stupid to understand why they don’t deserve to make more than $38,000 a year. I mean really. What “political point” are they trying to make? That people we would hope were the best and the brightest in the country are paid too much? What if we added: Average salary for an MBA with 20 years experience $190,800 Average brain surgeon salary $219,000 Average AmLaw 100 law firm partner salary $1,600,000 Average salary for a New York Yankee $6,186,000 ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/13 "2013-01-31T19:49:29Z")
Another point to keep in mind, from the [about.com](http://about.com) link: > [@](#): > > Members of Congress are not eligible for a pension until they reach the age of 50, but only if they’ve completed 20 years of service. Members are eligible at any age after completing 25 years of service or after they reach the age of 62. Please also note that Members of Congress have to serve at least 5 years to even receive a pension. So it’s not like someone can serve one term and immediately start drawing a pension! ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/14 "2013-01-31T19:53:34Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I would also take issue with the average pay of a soldier in Afghanistan. I just ran some numbers for a hypothetical married 22-year-old E-4 in the army, stationed at Ft. Hood, TX, who enlisted when he was 18: > > $27,660.24 - Base Pay > $12,204.00 - BA > $4,227.24 - BAS > $2,700 - IDP (combat pay) > $3,000 FSP (family separation pay) > > Comes to a total of $49,791.48/yr, and most of that is tax free when he’s deployed. Keep in mind that this is for a 22-year-old, non-college educated infantryman, and we’re comparing his salary to guys in their 50s and 60s who probably have law degrees. That’s amazing; who knew you could make that much and still qualify for food stamps? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/15 "2013-01-31T23:00:18Z")
Who brought up food stamps? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Iggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iggy/32/3364_2.png) [@Iggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Iggy)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/16 "2013-02-01T00:31:15Z")
Congressional pensions are based upon the three highest paid years. Someone who served a leadership post that draws a higher salary (House Speaker, Majority Leader, etc…) is eligible to receive a higher pension even if they were not serving in that post upon retirement from the Congress. How much they can draw does depend upon age and years of service. There is a limit of 80 percent of salary, but Cost of Living increases over a sufficiently lengthy time could boost a pension higher. Not sure if there is a more current report, but this PDF report on[Retirement Benefits for Members of Congress](http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/retirement.pdf) by the Congressional Research Service lays it all out as of 2005. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/17 "2013-02-01T00:55:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Who brought up food stamps? 😕 It’s a meme that floats around FB every so often, or I think I’ve even seen it here before. “A military family of 4 qualifies for food stamps! The injustice!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/18 "2013-02-01T00:55:30Z")
Ohhhh. Yeah, I’ve seen that. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/19 "2013-02-01T01:00:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **steronz** : > > I would also take issue with the average pay of a soldier in Afghanistan. I just ran some numbers for a hypothetical married 22-year-old E-4 in the army, stationed at Ft. Hood, TX, who enlisted when he was 18: Would that be an _average_ soldier, though? I’m not certain of how the army is organized, but I would have expected that there’d be about as many E-1s as everyone else combined, which would pull the average down. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859/20 "2013-02-01T01:02:17Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > It’s a meme that floats around FB every so often, or I think I’ve even seen it here before. “A military family of 4 qualifies for food stamps! The injustice!” Note that of everything I posted, only the member’s base pay of $28k actually counts as income. If he had 2 kids, he very may well qualify for food stamps. Whether or not he could actually get them, I dunno, but I’m annoyed that people (such as the example in the OP) are quick to “forget” all of those allotments when talking about what a soldier actually gets paid. So I agree with you, the food stamp meme should die. But I haven’t seen it in a while. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-debunk-this-chart-please-pres-cong-lifetime-salaries/648859.md?page=2)