# Help me explain why my assistant's punctuation is wrong **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 3, 2010, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313 "2010-11-03T09:53:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/21 "2010-11-03T16:29:11Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > “Not only” requires a “but _also_.” The style where I work is specificially NOT to use “also” in this case. It’s a style thing rather than a fixed rule, though. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/22 "2010-11-03T16:31:23Z")
Yes, it’s a style thing. But, ugh, what a horrible style. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/23 "2010-11-03T16:45:51Z")
I’d write it: “This is expected to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to IIRMS success, and may reduce survey costs.” My reasoning is that you have two outcomes, one expected and one only possible, so you shouldn’t link them with a “both”. I feel you need the commas to seperate the middle clause because I tried it without the commas and it confused the meaning. “This is expected to improve the quality of the data which is essential to IIRMS success and may also reduce survey costs” implies that only the essential data is improved and the non-essential date may remain the same. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/24 "2010-11-03T17:20:04Z")
Back to the OP’s original problem of how to explain that the commas around _both_ are unnecessary. I suggest she tells her assistant to read it taking a big breath every time a comma occurs. The problem and solution will then be very obvious. ---
**Author:** ![JKilez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@JKilez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKilez)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/25 "2010-11-03T18:01:41Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > I agree with this and came here to post the same thing. You need no commas in the entire sentence. You just need two dashes. Ditto; only I would use em dashes without spaces, not en dashes. ---
**Author:** ![pantheon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6bbea6/32.png) [@pantheon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantheon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/26 "2010-11-03T18:33:34Z")
My boss, who is normally very pedantic about written communications, offsets the phrase “as well as” with commas and it makes me stabby. “Be sure to be friendly, as well as, professional when greeting our guests.” GAH ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/27 "2010-11-03T18:33:40Z")
If you like commas: _ **This is expected to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to IIRMS success, and, perhaps, reduce survey costs.** _ I don’t think you need the “both,” and neither do I like all those commas. However if I were writing a text to be read aloud, I’d write the text just that way. If (like me\*) you are a fan of the parenthesis: _**This is expected to improve the quality of the data (essential to IIRMS success), and possibly reduce survey costs.**_ I do realize my love affair with the parenthesis is a product of my ADHD. It lets me prattle on without pausing and still cram in a bunch of helpful tangential thoughtlets. When the descriptive element being contained in parentheses is not immediately intuitive, I like parentheses better than commas. I also find parentheses more useful for text I’m reading because they don’t make me mentally pause the way commas do. Your assistant’s punctuation is wrong for the reason mentioned many times above. Don’t put commas where you don’t pause. \*Me 'n the queen, that is. ---
**Author:** ![lizardling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@lizardling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lizardling)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/28 "2010-11-04T01:46:06Z")
Another thing that I’m seeing in people’s suggestions is the clause “possibly to reduce survey costs.” I would rewrite as “…to possibly reduce survey costs,” to keep the verb construction consistent. > [@](#): > > This is expected both to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to IIRMS success, and possibly to reduce survey costs. Rewrite: This is expected to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to the success of IIRMS, while also possibly reducing survey costs. I’m allergic to dashes and parentheticals as a result of working in software technical writing for so long. Don’t get me started on semicolons, since they’re a disease I’ve contracted and have yet to be cured of. 😃 Those usually wind up causing headaches for our localization folks. Commas around “both” is wrong because that makes it sound like you’re popping it out of the sentence, which ends up making the sentence not quite make sense. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/29 "2010-11-04T03:56:14Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If you like commas: > > _ **This is expected to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to IIRMS success, and, perhaps, reduce survey costs.** _ > > . . . I do realize my love affair with the parenthesis is a product of my ADHD. You also have a love affair with the conspicuously split infinitive - 15 words, including two parenthetical prhases, between “to” and “reduce”. I don’t get hung up on split infinitives, but this one is awkward. Add a second “to” before “reduce”. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/30 "2010-11-04T04:21:11Z")
Oh, come on people, this has gotten really pedantic! **CairoCarol** ’s original sentence may not have been the most beautiful fragment of prose that the world has ever seen, but it was perfectly clear, grammatically correct, and correctly punctuated. It does _not_ need to be re-written. (And, as everyone seems to agree, it certainly should not have commas around “both.” ) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/31 "2010-11-04T05:10:02Z")
It is acceptable to use commas to represent a pause when writing dialog or exposition. Since both grammar and punctuation are low priority subjects in modern education, people are often taught to write in the manner they would use to relate a story verbally, resulting in the addition of extra commas to represent insignificant pauses. That doesn’t really matter though. Explain it to your assistant with the phrase, “Because I said so.” Then get a new assistant. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/32 "2010-11-04T05:18:28Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > ## \ > > Slight hijack regarding comma abuse: I often see stray commas along the lines of this example: > > “The mighty blue whale, is believed to be the largest creature that has ever lived.” > > Does this have a name? It is surprisingly common. I believe what you got there is a comma splice. It could also be a case of comma-itis - someone just sticking commas in wherever they feel like it (similar to the ubiquitous apostrophe-itis that’s been going around). ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/33 "2010-11-04T06:09:38Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I believe what you got there is a comma splice. It could also be a case of comma-itis - someone just sticking commas in wherever they feel like it (similar to the ubiquitous apostrophe-itis that’s been going around). Nah! A [comma splice](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_splice) is when a comma is used to join two independent clauses:in effect, using a comma where you should use either “and” or a semicolon (or just have two separate sentences). “The mighty blue whale” is not an independent clause, it is the subject of the sentence, and should most certainly not be separated from the verb by a comma.\* It is undoubtedly an error, but I do not know of any pithy name for it. \*It occurred to me, whilst writing that sentence, that the first comma in it appears to fit the definition of a comma splice that I just gave. Nevertheless, it seems to me that the sentence would only be harmed by using “and” or a semicolon, or by making it into two sentences. Is anyone up to explaining why I did not make an error there, or else to convincing me that I really did? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/34 "2010-11-04T11:46:43Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > The addition of the commas is jarring at best, if not flat-out wrong, but I am not able to explain why quickly and succinctly, since my facility with English is based more on intuition than on explicit rule-based knowledge. I don’t think there is anything wrong with either sentance, although my preference is for the original, more simple version. Intuition is the only way to deal with anything other than simple grammer. Try reading the sentance out load to see if it flows or not. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/35 "2010-11-04T12:13:16Z")
Why does it have to be a single sentance? I don’t think the impact is lessened by separating it into: “_This is expected to improve the quality of the data, which is essential to IIRMS success. It may also reduce survey costs._” Don’t be afraid of the full-stop/period! I don’t think the emphasis of “both” is needed here, as the survey costs are further qualified by the “possibly” (which is a weaker expectation than the data quality improvements). ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/36 "2010-11-04T23:33:06Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You also have a love affair with the conspicuously split infinitive - 15 words, including two parenthetical prhases, between “to” and “reduce”. > > I don’t get hung up on split infinitives, but this one is awkward. Add a second “to” before “reduce”. Nah. It’s cleaner without the second “to” and I left it out deliberately. There is nothing “awkward” any more than using a salad fork for the main is “awkward.” The whole split infinitive thing is mostly b.s.–fodder for minor pedants less interested in clarity than deriving some small joy of finding a Rule Violation. The folks too slow to realize the “to” can be used for both verbs are probably also too slow to recognize the split infinitive Rule was violated. They will just read it and understand exactly what was being communicated. I hope to improve clarity and reduce pedantry, but it’s tough some days. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/37 "2010-11-04T23:39:15Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Well, I, don’t, know, why, her, commas, are excessive, technically, just that, they, are. She, needs, a , reason, FOR, them. Otherwise, if she, can’t explain, why they’re there, such as, setting off, a subordinate clause, then, out they, go. Whoda thunk Bill Shatner was a Doper! ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2010, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313/38 "2010-11-05T10:37:37Z")
> [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Whoda thunk Bill Shatner was a Doper! That also makes me think of Jonathan Archer. Thank you all for the input. Now that you point it out, I agree that the “expected…possibly” combination is bizarre. These days I am reading so many documents written by engineers that my brain is expected to, both, melt and possibly cease functioning. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-explain-why-my-assistants-punctuation-is-wrong/559313.md?page=1)