# Help me find a fantasy novel like this... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 26, 2011, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898 "2011-10-26T20:00:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/21 "2011-10-27T10:10:41Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > I’d also put up a vote for some light pieces by the late Roger Zelazny: \*Changeling \*and \*MadWand \*though they’re certainly not gritty. Fun reading, though. If we’re talking Zelazny then I’d go with _Dilvish the Damned_. It’s the closest thing to traditional fantasy he ever wrote, and it’s pretty good. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/22 "2011-10-27T13:46:57Z")
For gritty, high magic there’s the [Black Company](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Company_(novel)) series by Glen Cook. Does not come with dwarves and elves and trolls, and not as many ruins as such, but definitely gritty and serious and over-the-top magic. Katherine Kerr’s [Deverry](http://www.deverry.com/deverry.html) series has magic, elves, dwarves, dragons, treasures, etc. The magic is a _bit_ more subtle, and although gritty the series isn’t grim. Also, it is written in a convoluted reincarnation-flashback interwoven metastory through much of the series, which may be a bit confusing. Obscure and out-of-print: Paul Edwin Zimmer’s [Dark Border](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Edwin_Zimmer#Background_to_the_Dark_Border_series) series. Gritty high fantasy with elves and Chthulu gribblies, basically. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/23 "2011-10-27T14:52:20Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Well, I’d have to second (or third or whatever) the votes for > > [ul] > [li]Feist’s \*Magician \*(Apprentice, Master, Silverthorn, Darkness at Sethanon). I didn’t continue after that, but my friend did and had mixed reviews.[/li][li]Rosenberg’s \*Guardians of the Flame \*-- and it’s spin-off trilogy. The main character of the spin-off is critical to the overall premise of the _Flame_ series; the author needs to remember that and finish what he started rather than just leave it all hanging…[/li][/ul] It will be difficult for Joel Rosenburg to NOT leave us all hanging at this point. Didn’t he die not too long ago? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/24 "2011-10-27T15:08:23Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If we’re talking Zelazny then I’d go with _Dilvish the Damned_. It’s the closest thing to traditional fantasy he ever wrote, and it’s pretty good. Dilvish is a series of short stories collected in one book; it starts strong, but loses momentum and doesn’t really bring anything to a conclusion. There’s a sequel, _The Changing Land_, which brings the plot to a conclusion but isn’t very good. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/25 "2011-10-27T15:33:57Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > It will be difficult for Joel Rosenburg to NOT leave us all hanging at this point. Didn’t he die not too long ago? Yes, in June of this year. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/26 "2011-10-27T17:15:00Z")
Wow! Great suggestions, everyone. Thanks! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/27 "2011-10-27T17:24:47Z")
I want to also say Dragonlance. At least the Chronicles and Legends books. It is not gritty but it does have some weight to it. Especially the Legends series. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/28 "2011-10-27T18:12:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes, in June of this year. Oh Bloody L! :smack: Give me the rights, then. I’ll just finish it myself! :mad: –G! ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/29 "2011-10-27T18:22:08Z")
> [@DeptfordX](#): > > I tryed to re-read the first trilogy a few years ago. They do not hold up, aged very badly i felt. > [@Quimby](#): > > I want to also say Dragonlance. At least the Chronicles and Legends books. It is not gritty but it does have some weight to it. Especially the Legends series. It’s been a long time since I read them, and I haven’t tried re-reading. But I remember them being family friendly enough to pass to my kids as they were coming out. I think I liked the Twins Trilogies best. ---
**Author:** ![DeptfordX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DeptfordX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DeptfordX)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/30 "2011-10-27T20:31:38Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It’s been a long time since I read them, and I haven’t tried re-reading. But I remember them being family friendly enough to pass to my kids as they were coming out. I think I liked the Twins Trilogies best. Much like the Lensman books, best read first when younger i suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/31 "2011-10-27T22:57:30Z")
The \*Dragonlance Chronicles \*are basically a junior-high AD&D campaign in book form (it was, in fact, written by TSR employees as a tie-in to a series of modules). The \*Legends \*are a bit more literary, but are basically at the same level of sophistication. Of all the D&D writers, Weis and Hickman were probably the best; still, that’s fairly faint praise. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/32 "2011-10-27T23:50:33Z")
Another set of votes for the Paksenarrion books, and Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (though, as **Grestarian** notes, they’re really more a series of short stories, which is probably how they were originally presented). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/33 "2011-10-27T23:51:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The \*Dragonlance Chronicles \*are basically a junior-high AD&D campaign in book form (it was, in fact, written by TSR employees as a tie-in to a series of modules). My understanding is that some of the traits of the characters, and certain events in the novels, came directly out of the playtests of the Dragonlance modules. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/34 "2011-10-28T00:06:00Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My understanding is that some of the traits of the characters, and certain events in the novels, came directly out of the playtests of the Dragonlance modules. That’s correct; it was in one of the supplemental books (Art of Dragonlance?). There’s also an amusing bit about how they had to do a “head count” each chapter to be sure Tanis’ half-brother was mentioned because he was so boring they kept forgetting about him and Weis was begging the editor to let her kill him off. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/35 "2011-10-28T02:43:32Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > My understanding is that some of the traits of the characters, and certain events in the novels, came directly out of the playtests of the Dragonlance modules. I absolutely hated some of the characters in those books, but most of all Tanis. What an emo wimp. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/36 "2011-10-28T02:52:25Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > I want mages throwing fireballs and dwarves smashing face with their battle axes. Shape shifting nature loving elves, and holy warriors. Gimme evil wizards summoning elementals and necromancers raising the dead. Orcs, trolls, and ogres. Hidden treasure, magic weapons, mystical ruins. That’s right, I’m asking for every fantasy cliche from WoW, DnD, and other RPGs. Mix Tolkien with Salvatore. > > But… > > Make it gritty and serious like Game of Thrones. > > I’ve heard a bit about the Malazan books. Is that what I’m looking for? Well, I hated the Shannara books, but since they are such a rip-off of Tolkien, maybe they’d fit? Hmm. I also hated the only “Guardians of the Flame” book I read. I suspect I do not have a lot to offer in this thread, but maybe someone more in tune can comment on Shannara. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/37 "2011-10-28T02:55:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Of all the D&D writers, Weis and Hickman were probably the best; still, that’s fairly faint praise. I like R.A. Salvatore’s drow elf series and Ed Greenwood’s Elminster books…but then again, I’m a gamer. They may have less appeal to non-gamers. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/38 "2011-10-28T17:30:28Z")
I’m a gamer, and I’ve always hated Salvatore’s and Greenwood’s books. While the concepts might be great for gaming, neither guy is very good at writing. IOW, the books succeed at presenting concepts, but fail as stories. Salvatore, in particular, needs to be strung up by his toes and beaten with nail studded rubber hoses for thinking up Dri-wossname. [Goblins -](http://www.goblinscomic.com/07102005/)[Goblins -](http://www.goblinscomic.com/07112005/) Kender, on the other hand, are a pretty decent story concept…but a lousy game concept. At least, lousy if they are allowed as a PC race. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/39 "2011-10-28T18:30:35Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > …[http://www.goblinscomic.com/07102005/](http://www.goblinscomic.com/07102005/)[Goblins -](http://www.goblinscomic.com/07112005/)… Ha, hilariously true! [hipster mode on] True story, but one of my early AD&D characters was a dual-wielding dark elf exiled hero, _before_ Drizzt was ever created. I was trying to make an Elric clone without being too obvious. Later, after Drizzt became popular, I retired that character because it was too damn embarrassing to play, like wearing a Vanilla Ice concert t-shirt to a modern show. [hipster mode off] ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898/40 "2011-10-28T19:20:50Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Salvatore, in particular, needs to be strung up by his toes and beaten with nail studded rubber hoses for thinking up Dri-wossname. It’s less that Salvatore thought him up and more that everyone wants to copy him. Without that, he’d just be another moderately overpowered hero. Few people seem to want to copy Elminster, so he escapes the hatedom Drizzt generated, even though he’s way, way more powergamey than Drizzt. Salvatore’s worse than Greenwood, but Greenwood’s mediocre at best. Still, the books are enjoyable enough for fans, though I’d rank them no higher than guilty pleasures. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-find-a-fantasy-novel-like-this/600898.md?page=3)