# Help me identify this jet. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939 "2011-07-22T02:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![automagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@automagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/automagic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/1 "2011-07-22T02:58:11Z")
I remember watching a television show where they argued that it was better for government agencies to have private companies compete for contracts instead of the government having their own dedicated R&D team. Their example was that the Air Force wanted a new type of fighter jet and two companies were the “finalists”. Each had built their fully functioning jets and they were to compete. The first was very competent and better than the air forces best fighter but the other was purposely built to be aerodynamically unstable so it could out maneuver any other jet in history (including its competition). My question is, what was that jet that won the competition? How about the loser? The narrator mentioned that the loser jet cost 100’s of millions to develop and it only flew once. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/2 "2011-07-22T03:39:43Z")
You are probably thinking of the competition which resulted in the F-22 fighter, but the loser in the competition flew many more times than once. > **[Advanced Tactical Fighter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Tactical_Fighter)** > > The Advanced Tactical Fighter (ATF) was a demonstration and validation program undertaken by the United States Air Force to develop a next-generation air superiority fighter to counter emerging worldwide threats, including Soviet Sukhoi Su-27 and Mikoyan MiG-29 fighters under development in the 1980s. Lockheed and Northrop were selected in 1986 to develop the YF-22 and the YF-23 technology demonstrator aircraft. These aircraft were evaluated in 1991 and the Lockheed YF-22 was selected and l... ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/3 "2011-07-22T03:40:32Z")
[The Northrop F-20 Tigershark?](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-20_Tigershark) ---
**Author:** ![automagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@automagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/automagic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/4 "2011-07-22T03:43:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You are probably thinking of the competition which resulted in the F-22 fighter, but the loser in the competition flew many more times than once. > > [Advanced Tactical Fighter - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Tactical_Fighter) Thank you, that is it. Your right I misquoted. What the narrator actually said was that after it lost it was the last time it flew (or something like that). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/5 "2011-07-22T04:24:59Z")
> [@automagic](#): > > The first was very competent and better than the air forces best fighter but the other was purposely built to be aerodynamically unstable so it could out maneuver any other jet in history (including its competition). All modern fighter aircraft are designed to be aerodynamically unstable. The concept is called relaxed static stability and first appeared on the F-16. Both the (Y)F-22 and F-23 were designed around electronic flight controls and relaxed stability airframes. Anyway, it wasn’t like the F-23 was a waste of time. Its trapezoidal wings are now the state of the art for stealthy fighter designs (which is why the F-35 adopted them) ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/6 "2011-07-25T09:40:16Z")
> [@automagic](#): > > I remember watching a television show where they argued that it was better for government agencies to have private companies compete for contracts instead of the government having their own dedicated R&D team. Their example was that the Air Force wanted a new type of fighter jet and two companies were the “finalists”. Each had built their fully functioning jets and they were to compete. The first was very competent and better than the air forces best fighter but the other was purposely built to be aerodynamically unstable so it could out maneuver any other jet in history (including its competition). > > My question is, what was that jet that won the competition? How about the loser? The narrator mentioned that the loser jet cost 100’s of millions to develop and it only flew once. to replace the f-15 as the air superiority fighter, i remember a 1980s time article pitting the lockheed model that featured thrust vectoring (very maneuverable) as against the northrop(?) model that featured stealth technology. the lockheed won --at the time. NB the lockheed looked a lot like the f-22 raptor. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/7 "2011-07-25T13:51:49Z")
That’s probably because it was the F-22 Raptor. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/8 "2011-07-25T14:38:26Z")
Interestingly, the Wiki says: > [@](#): > > The YF-23 design was more stealthy and faster, but the YF-22 was more agile. _In general_, the trend in the US Air Force has been to favor speed, hasn’t it? And when soliciting for a stealthy fighter, it seems like “speed + better stealth” would trump “agility (maneuverability, I guess?).” But the choice went the opposite way in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-identify-this-jet/589939/9 "2011-07-25T15:23:02Z")
Not really. One of the hallmarks of 4th generation fighters (roughly, Western and Soviet planes that entered service from the late seventies on) is that designers went back to designing dogfighters, having learned their lesson from aircraft like the F-4. The F-22 is slower than its predecessor, the F-15, which was itself barely faster than the F-4. The F-18 is significantly slower than the F-14. The F-35 is intended to replace the F-16 and F/A-18, and is slower than _both_. However, most fifth generation fighters (with the notable exception of the F-35) can supercruise, or exceed Mach 1 without using afterburners. Hence, they have a lower absolute top speed, but they can operate for much longer at high speeds. It’s not a US-only thing, either. The Dassault Rafale is only marginally faster than its predecessor, the Mirage 2000. The Eurofighter Typhoon is faster than the Tornado, Jaguar, Harrier and lots of other aircraft it partly replaces, but those are all primarily strike aircraft.