# Help me improve my understanding of Vietnamese orthography and phonology **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 27, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-improve-my-understanding-of-vietnamese-orthography-and-phonology/409637 "2007-06-27T14:03:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 3\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-improve-my-understanding-of-vietnamese-orthography-and-phonology/409637/1 "2007-06-27T14:03:36Z")
This thread is inspired by an exchange in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=426238&page=1&pp=40) one about handling an unusual name. The following exchange occurred: > [@acsenray](#): > > So far I have completely failed to grasp Vietnamese orthography and phonology. I’ve tried many times to get someone to pronounce Nguyen for me. The closest I’ve gotten is “Winn,” and I know that’s just an approximation. There are at least two, maybe three nasalized vowels in there – u, y, and en – and somehow it’s still supposed to come out as one syllable! I haven’t been able to diphthongize those three vowels with my mouth. > > I tried to work it out with the “Phuc” that I mentioned I knew. I asked him to say his same several times. Every single time, at the end of the word, his lips came together (bilabially), but he insisted that there was no \*\*, [p], or [m] at the end. But the final bilabialness was clear, and everyone else who was there confirmed that his lips were coming together at the end. > > I wonder, is it an aspect of Vietnamese phonology to simply discount as null forms that in English we would include as being part of the sound structure? [QUOTE=TheLoadedDog] I’ve had the same conversation with Vietnamese people: “If your sister’s name is Bong, why do you call her Bongm?” “I don’t.” Then again, I was led to believe that we English speakers are the odd one out here, with our habit of leaving our mouths dangling open at the end of words like “Bong”. Or so I’ve been told. [/QUOTE] Can anyone offer any information that would help ease my confusion about how the sound system of Vietnamese works? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-improve-my-understanding-of-vietnamese-orthography-and-phonology/409637/2 "2007-06-28T18:36:34Z")
No takers? ---
**Author:** ![twopiecesofeight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5e9695/32.png) [@twopiecesofeight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twopiecesofeight)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-improve-my-understanding-of-vietnamese-orthography-and-phonology/409637/3 "2007-06-28T23:34:47Z")
**acsenray** , my response may not be appropriate to GQ given my lack of formal knowledge, but I’ll give it a try (Yoda, I can’t hear you, lalalala)… (Disclaimer: I am not a fluent native speaker, depite my well-meaning relatives’ comments to the contrary. I speak Southern Vietnamese (Saigon dialect) with a tinge of a Central (Hue) accent. This is in contrast to language classes that emphasize the Northern Dialect (Hanoi) since it is the officially sanctioned language since reunification. I am not a linguist, so forgive me for using non-technical terms.) > [@](#): > > I’ve tried many times to get someone to pronounce Nguyen for me. Vietnamese pronunciation tends to become blurred when spoken at a conversational pace. When you pronounce “Nguyen” very slowly (as if you’re taking Vietnamese 101), you may hear three sub-syllables (dipthongs, I guess): “ng” as in the final part of “sing” “uy” as in “ouie” or “oowey” as in “Louie” “n” just like “ng” only less enunciated String together and you’ll get something like “ngweeeng”. [This site](http://susankullmann.net/MIRROR/pronunciation/vietnamese.html) has sound files to help you pronounce some Vietnamese names, including [Nguyen](http://susankullmann.net/MIRROR/pronunciation/sounds/vietnamese/nguyen.wav) . > [@](#): > > I’ve gotten is “Winn,” and I know that’s just an approximation. In rapid conversation, Southern Vietnamese tend to muddle dipthongs. It’s common to hear “Nguyen” pronounced as “win”. What’s perhaps more important is that you get the correct tone (indicated by diacritical marks). I know it may sound bizarre, but if you don’t get the right tone or omit it entirely, native speakers will often have no clue as to what you’re saying. They can’t even take educated guesses, unless they’re used to talking with foreigners. If you can say Nguyễn as “win” with the rising tone (indicated by the tilda mark ~), people are more likely to understand you regardless of how you muck up the dipthongs. As an aside, using an English/Latin alphabet to replicate Vietnamese words (the way things are now) phonetically is an extreme challenge to the English speaker. Too many homophones, exceptions, and cross-coding letters (a “d” is pronounced “y” as in "yam) to consider. Also note that, similar to Chinese, some Vietnamese words just can’t be easily described, such as [Tuyet](http://susankullmann.net/MIRROR/pronunciation/sounds/vietnamese/tuyet.wav) , another common name. > [@](#): > > I tried to work it out with the “Phuc” It’s like saying “fook” without aspirating the “k” (swallow it). The bad news is that to most people, “Phuc” (happiness) and “phut” (minute) sound alike. It’s only when you slow down and hyper-enunciate (which sounds lame and unrealistic like the way some people say “DO YOU SPEAK ENGLISH?” when they’re lost in Chinatown), that you can hear “phut” pronounced as “foot” (without an aspirated “t”). > [@](#): > > “If your sister’s name is Bong, why do you call her Bongm?” > > “I don’t” At conversational speeds, “Bong” sounds like “Bom”. What we hear when we talk is different from what the listener hears. It may sound like “Bongm” to you (the sound coming from his/her mouth), but he may be hearing something else since his voice is entering the brain through his headspace. Also, the speaker learned “Bong” as “Bong”, not as “Bongm”. The nazalized “gm” ending you hear simply registers as “ng” to the speaker. It’s extremely difficult for native Vietnamese speakers to explain things in terms of orthography, because they didn’t learn the language that way. For the most part, they learned language as children with brains that simply aborbed words and sounds at an incredible rate simply through repeating what an adult says. I may catch flak for saying this, but I’ll even go as far as to say that Vietnamese orthography is inconsistent. Native speakers may protest, but they’re actually internalizing the inconsistencies, much like the way some people insist that English spelling is mostly phonetic (“Spell it like it sounds!”)\* \*Of course, Dopers know better. > [@](#): > > Then again, I was led to believe that we English speakers are the odd one out here, with our habit of leaving our mouths dangling open at the end of words like “Bong”. Or so I’ve been told. Ask your Vietnamese friend to pronounce bóng (shadow) and see if the word is pronounced with a dangling mouth. When I say it, it comes out at “bom” and my mouth is completely closed. On the other hand, bốn (four) ends on an open mouth…confusing, no?