# Help me keep my hostage alive **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 31, 2020, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355 "2020-12-31T15:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/21 "2021-01-01T00:18:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Leave them a sudoku book and a pencil if you’re feeling generous. Or a pocket size one and a thick magic marker if you hate them . . . ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/22 "2021-01-01T09:15:05Z")
Include a ventilator with a fan. Also include a stationary bicycle (which isn’t usually really a bicycle at all, usually having only one wheel) so your , uh , guest can get some exercise. Rig up the stationary bicycle to operate the fan in the ventilator. Then your guest can get himself as much fresh air as he feels he needs, whenever he needs it, along with his exercise too. Source: Kurt Vonnegut describes such a set-up in Cat’s Cradle. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/23 "2021-01-01T11:28:10Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Rig up the stationary bicycle to operate the fan in the ventilator. Then your guest can get himself as much fresh air as he feels he needs The obvious objection to a setup in which the guest is responsible for his own well-being is the scenario where the guest has an incentive to end his confinement by any means necessary. Say he’s in possession of secret information, or is a critical pawn in some potential exchange, and he wants to interfere with your plans by removing his value to you. Seems to me the circumstances of the OP call for lodgings which are kept livable for the guest with no action or participation on his part (barring some [extreme and unlikely exception](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/can-superman-tear-his-own-head-off/345543)). ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/24 "2021-01-01T12:38:46Z")
I just read something about a kidnap victim who died as a result of the kidnappers not realizing that a vent needed a powered fan. They built an underground box, left lots of food and water, had a light, blankets, and even some books and other things for amusement, and a pipe venting to the outside, but it was at the top of this underground box (or very, very small room); there was no vent fan, and the victim suffocated. IIRC, the body was discovered by cadaver dogs, and the kidnap never solved. It was intended to be a ransom kidnapping, and there was initial contact by the kidnapper(s?), but they dropped everything, and that’s when second, intense search parties went out, with the dogs. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/25 "2021-01-01T15:13:15Z")
Okay, I’m a little confused. I got an automated reply this morning that my OP was " flagged as **inappropriate** : the community feels it is offensive, abusive, or a violation of [our community guidelines](https://boards.straightdope.com/guidelines)." But earlier than that was a post saying the post had been ‘restored by staff’ – thank you to whoever. But the ‘restored’ post came before (as in, earlier in the message list) than the "closed’ message, which also talked about the possibility of a second closure possibly occurring after a reopenging …so, I’m not sure if the post is gone or hidden from everybody except me or what. Anyway, just to confirm: yes, this is purely a hypothetical situation, I have absolutely no intention of abducting anyone. I was just speculating on the feasibility of holding a hostage safely without the dangers/inconveniences of his captors having to attend to his needs on a on-going basis, daily or more frequently. Maybe that is macabre, but I don’t think it’s wildly out of line with other hypotheticals that have been played with on this forum. Apparently it triggered some readers, so I apologize for that. To me it was just a curious idea to work out, with no real emotional impact. I can see now that someone could react differently, especially if it evokes something that had occurred to them in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/26 "2021-01-01T15:30:57Z")
I don’t think you want a windmill or solar panels - someone wandering by might spot them and wonder what they are for. You are already including batteries for the lantern, so increase those to have enough to run the exhaust fan. I assume your double vent system will be enough (blow out at the bottom vent (per an earlier post CO2 sinks), and let airflow pull in fresh air at the top. Somebody should be able to size the vents/fan for you, given a single person breathing in there. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/27 "2021-01-01T15:41:48Z")
> [@FigNorton](#): > > Why dig? Just get a cottage in the woods with working plumbing and secure every opening. For inconspicuousness. A cabin out in the woods might draw the attention of anyone who happens to spot it. Like a hunter or backpacker seeking shelter from a storm or something or someone inclined to see if there’s something worth stealing/vandalizing. The trouble with the various ideas of using a windmill/watermill/solar cell to power a ventilation system is that they would also be eye-catching out in the middle of nowhere, too. I suppose I could fall back on some buried batteries, but I suspect that that might requite an unreasonable volume of batteries. I mean, if you can easily totally discharge a car battery by leaving your head lights on overnight or just sitting there and listening to a baseball game on the radio, surely a fan/ventilator would take more juice? > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Get a good solid building with no windows, put a solid door on it, and put a good locked bolt on the door from the outside. Your hostage is now securely confined. Yeah, but… When I was ten or so my family was renting a house that also including a storage shed. Decently built, no windows, with a door closed by a padlock on the outside. We used it to hold the lawnmower and various lawn and garden tools. One day I ended up locked inside it. (Yes, I have two older brothers, how did you guess?) After yelling and pounding on the door futilely for a while, I managed to escape rather quickly, using a shovel and one of those claw type diggers to pry lose a board in the roof and destroy the shingles above that. I’ve got to think my hostage might be better at McGyvering an escape than a ten year old, you know? > [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > Have you tried freezing your hostage in Carbonite? I’m pretty sure Amazon has that listed as ‘not available’ currently. Just another pandemic caused shortage, I guess. > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Or a pocket size one and a thick magic marker if you hate them . . . Evil! I said I didn’t want to harm my hostage, and I think driving them mad falls under that. > [@Cervaise](#): > > Seems to me the circumstances of the OP call for lodgings which are kept livable for the guest with no action or participation on his part Yeah, that would be preferable. > [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I just read something about a kidnap victim who died as a result of the kidnappers not realizing that a vent needed a powered fan. My god, did this happen recently? I hadn’t heard anything about it. I do have a vague memory of someone being held buried in a coffin with some sort of rigged up ventilation system, but the air intake happened to be located close to where some idling car or truck’s exhaust pipe was, and the hostage died of carbon monoxide poisoning. (Though I kind of think that might have been the plot in some cop tv show/movie that I watched, rather than real life.) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/28 "2021-01-01T15:48:13Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I hadn’t heard anything about it. I do have a vague memory of someone being held buried in a coffin with some sort of rigged up ventilation system, but the air intake happened to be located close to where some idling car or truck’s exhaust pipe was, and the hostage died of carbon monoxide poisoning. - There’s this case though the victim survived. > **[Barbara Mackle kidnapping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Mackle_kidnapping)** > > The 1968 kidnapping of Barbara Jane Mackle was the subject of an autobiographical book which was the basis of two television movies. > Barbara Jane Mackle, aged 20 at the time of her kidnapping, was the daughter of Robert Mackle, a wealthy Florida land developer. Barbara was attending Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia, when the Hong Kong flu pandemic impacted the campus, resulting in Barbara contracting the illness. Barbara's mother travelled to Atlanta to take care of her daughter and drive ... > They drove her to a remote pine stand off South Berkeley Lake Road in [Gwinnett County](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwinnett_County) near [Duluth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth,_Georgia) and buried Mackle in a shallow trench inside a fiberglass-reinforced box. The box was outfitted with an air pump, a battery-powered lamp, water laced with sedatives, and food. Two plastic pipes provided Mackle with outside air. ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/29 "2021-01-01T23:50:57Z")
Also tried in 1976 where a school bus driver and 26 kids were kidnapped and held in a buried box trailer. > **[1976 Chowchilla kidnapping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Chowchilla_kidnapping)** > > Pages for logged out editors learn more > > > > The 1976 Chowchilla kidnapping was the abduction of a school bus driver and 26 children, ages 5 to 14, in Chowchilla, California, United States, on July 15, 1976. The kidnappers held their captives in a box truck buried in a quarry in Livermore, California, intending to demand a ransom for their return. After about 16 hours underground, the driver and children dug themselves out and escaped, all surviving. The quarry owner's son and two of his ... ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/30 "2021-01-01T23:55:26Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I just read something about a kidnap victim who died as a result of the kidnappers not realizing that a vent needed a powered fan. > **[Kidnapping of Ursula Herrmann](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Ursula_Herrmann)** > > The kidnapping of Ursula Herrmann was a notorious child kidnapping which occurred in Germany on 15 September 1981 in which a 10-year-old girl disappeared while riding a bicycle to her home. The child was subsequently found dead in a rectangular wooden box buried in woodland. > The circumstances surrounding Herrmann's kidnapping, confinement and death led to her being known as the Girl in the Box. > Hermann was making the trip between her cousin's house and her home on Tuesday, 15 September 1981. Th... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/31 "2021-01-02T00:17:05Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > Yeah, but… When I was ten or so my family was renting a house that also including a storage shed. Decently built, no windows, with a door closed by a padlock on the outside. We used it to hold the lawnmower and various lawn and garden tools. One day I ended up locked inside it. (Yes, I have two older brothers, how did you guess?) After yelling and pounding on the door futilely for a while, I managed to escape rather quickly, using a shovel and one of those claw type diggers to pry lose a board in the roof and destroy the shingles above that. I’ve got to think my hostage might be better at McGyvering an escape than a ten year old, you know? A storage shed is not what I would call a solid building. You want a building made out of something like concrete or brick. And don’t leave any shovels or other tools inside when you lock up your hostage. The rule of thumb is you should stand inside your confinement area after you’ve built and equipped it, take a look around, and ask yourself “How long would it take Andy Dufresne to dig his way out of here?” If your answer is more than ten days, you’re good. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/32 "2021-01-02T00:46:03Z")
^ You’re not making your kidnap victim do your tax returns, are you? How obtuse. 😄 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/33 "2021-01-02T01:09:35Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Kidnapping of Ursula Herrmann Yeah, I think that’s it. I don’t remember what I was reading-- maybe an article on unsolved crimes. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/34 "2021-01-02T01:14:42Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > ask yourself “How long would it take Andy Dufresne to dig his way out of here?” If your answer is more than ten days, you’re good. Also, remember that the boss in _9 to 5_ escaped because even though they were very thorough, they overlooked a tiny nail file halfway under a drawer. No, you won’t be trussing someone up that, well, creatively, but it’s still a good touchstone for a real-life situation: the tiniest thing can fall the biggest structure. That’s why the myth of elephants being afraid of mice is so persistent. The idea that a mouse can fall an elephant is very attractive. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/35 "2021-01-02T19:07:00Z")
Among the multitude of [Marc Dutroux’s](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Dutroux) crimes, were that two of his kidnap victims ended up starving to death. I forget the exact stats and study, but I want to say that a majority of global kidnap for ransom cases end up with the victim dead shortly after abduction. People pay anyway, it seems. Horrific crime. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/36 "2021-01-07T16:59:27Z")
I consider this thread to be in very poor taste, which – from me – is high praise, indeed. So, in that vein, I offer this possible response to the OP (from a Jewish jokes record that’s almost as old as I am): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/j56hhPyEz-g/hqdefault.jpg "You don´t have to be jewish - The hobby.wmv") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j56hhPyEz-g) ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/37 "2021-01-07T21:36:06Z")
> [@Dag\_Otto](#): > > Befriend him, and convince him to stand in line for you in the Covid vaccination line. He’ll be there at least ten days. Or, Let me introduce you to the “Chinese Student” kidnapping scam. 1. The target is a student in a foreign country, away from family and all things familiar. 2. The family has sent the student to a foreign country, away from safety and control. 3. The home country has a coercive political party and police force. 4. The target knows other students in a similar situation. The student is contacted by the “Police” from China, telling her that she is in danger, and must go into hiding. She is directed to just go stay with a friend, to not contact anyone, to not user her phone or social media accounts. Her friend is given similar instructions. Then her family is told that she has been kidnapped, and will be released on payment, and not to contact the police. They are permitted to try to contact their missing child – but she does not respond. She is missing from social media, has not been to classes, and none of her friends know where she is. The kidnap victim doesn’t even know she’s been kidnapped until she is released … ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/38 "2021-01-07T21:47:04Z")
You beat me to it. The OP’s thread made me think about a Reader’s Digest article from decades ago (or some other source) in which kidnappers had thought all that was needed was a tube for the air to come in, not realizing you need something mechanical to actually move the airflow. I think **penultima\_thule** ’s Wikipedia cite was it. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355/39 "2021-01-07T23:46:17Z")
For the CO2 problem, I immediately thought of this scene from Apollo 13: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/f6F6MzMT2g8/maxresdefault.jpg "Apollo 13 (1995) - Duct Tape and Cardboard Scene (8/11) | Movieclips") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6F6MzMT2g8) LiOH + CO2 = Li2CO3 + H2O I think that “airtight” sort of contraption they made was probably to keep water from going everywhere in the near-weightless part of their flight. So it may be easier in your hostage situation…could you put cans of it around the room and let them do their thing, or would water start to build up on top and prevent CO2 from reacting? Hmm. Googling, it looks like we exhale about 2.3 lbs of CO2 per day, x 10 days for 23 lbs total. A kg of LiOH can absorb\*\* 920 g of carbon dioxide (i.e. 92% its own weight) so I’m guessing you’d need 23 divided by .92, = 25 lbs of it, assuming it’s pure. Oxygen could simply be replenished from a tank (medical, scuba, whatever). The CO2 is coming out and not returning as gas. Would the 2 lbs of O2 we breathe each day replace its volume and keep the pressure inside more or less the same? 20 lbs of oxygen, please. Here’s an interesting read. > There have been some recent cases of fit young people dying in a backyard pool, while trying to hold their breath as long as possible. Perhaps some of them hyperventilated first, and blew off all their carbon dioxide - and along with it, the essential trigger needed for breathing. Then, as they lay on the floor of the pool, without the urge to breathe, they died without taking a single breath. [Breathing and Oxygen](https://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2005/06/15/1392360.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-keep-my-hostage-alive/929355.md?page=1)