Thanks guys ! your comments have been most helpful, everyone.
yosemitebabe: I remember from another thread that you use both a Mac and a PC, and that you don’t have much use for the PC side, so your comments are particularly interesting.
I am indeed quite willing to switch platforms if necessary, for lots of reasons. And mr cowgirl is interested in fooling around with something new, as we’re both Microsoft babies and feeling a little adventurous. But really, all i need at this point is an internet box. Oh, and one that I won’t have to keep getting fixed. (In high school I had all kinds of friends who knew all about computers and would come over and fix it for me. Now we’ve all moved on and all my friends are artsies - I’m one of the most computer-literate among us !) I have heard that Dells don’t last long, but that is merely a rumour: any comment?
It’s not that I don’t know much about computers. It’s just that I don’t care much, I want the lowest-maintenance option there is.
The virus thing concerns me because I know I’m the kind of person who would wake up one morning to find my hard drive wiped by something nasty and replaced by porn, and I would come here to start a Pit thread on my misfortune and y’all would say “Why didn’t you install this thing, or download that thing, that would have prevented this, like I told you last week?”
and I would go " … oh yah … that. I remember now."
That’s just the kind of person I am.
So I think I will go to my local used computer shop and get the cheapest internet-ready one they’ve got, and never, ever, ever again use Explorer or Outlook.
I dont think MS even sell their office suit unbundled anymore. Ive switched from MS Office to OpenOffice which is a open source full fledged office suite replacement for all platforms. I use it in all my classes and lectures to take notes and more often the Word users ask me about it at the end as it loads faster and has nifty things like predicting the word your trying to write and filling it in. And of course because its free you can try it out and dispose of it if you want without any real cost except a bit of time.
Yosemitebabe, the only that’s trying (for what purpose, I don’t know) to turn this into a Mac vs PC thing is you.
It’s clear to me that the OP’s reasonings for wanting to get away from PCs is because of fears of viruses from MS products. It’s also clear that she wants the cheapest box that will do what she needs.
I don’t know anything about the cost differences between Macs & PCs (I’m a PC person and I build my own), but if multiple people say that you get more bang for you buck with a PC, I’m inclined to believe them. And furthermore simply saying that isn’t the same as trashing Macs, or turning this into a Mac vs PC thing. Cowgirl wanted advice, which is what that was. They weren’t trying to sway her, or tell her she’s stupid if she gets anything but a PC, they are merely giving her all the information so she can make an informed decision.
The reason that people are still suggesting PCs even though cowgirl makes the claim that she wants to get away from MS is the reason she wants away from MS products. Which seems to be she’s afraid that if she uses MS products she will have no protection against viruses. This board is founded on fighting ignorance, so why would someone not try to educate cowgirl that there are multiple (and free) things she can do to protect herself against viruses and that she needn’t necessarily rule out PCs just for that reason?
Yes it does cost a lot to buy Word or Office in general, but there are alternatives.
Go to www.openoffice.org for a free alternative. The Suite allows you to open MS Office files and save as MS Office files. It includes a word processor (like Word), a spreadsheet program (like Excel), and many other things. The suite gives you just the basic functionality of MS Office, but I’m sure that’s all the more you’ll be using it for anyway.
Another option is to check with friends at a local university. Microsoft has agreements with a lot of universities where it sells MS products cheap to students. While living near Indiana Univeristy I was able to get MS products for $5/CD from friends on campus. I bought Office 2000 premium edition (4 CDs) for only $20. I also got Windows XP and then Office XP cheap. These are the full product versions and I’m still using them.
The third choice would be to buy an older version of office. Search Ebay or other sites for Office 97 or 2000 – depending on how much you want to pay. There aren’t many features that the average user would need going from Office 97 to XP. The downside here is that you may have trouble opening files created with Office 2000 or XP products. It can be troublesome if bring files home from work, mostly with spacing/tabs in Word.
A Mac is expensive only if your time is worth nothing.
That said, if cowgirl has an Apple Store nearby, she can always drop by and “kick the tires.” I believe the stores also have free “Introduction to the Mac” classes, so she can learn the basics and decide if she wants to go in that direction.
And living Microsoft-free is easy – the only Microsoft stuff I have at home is Internet Explorer, and I keep that locked away unless I want to test a new web site for cross-browser compatability.
Work, of course, is another matter. I use whatever the boss tells me to use. But when I’m spending my own money, there’s never any question.
Don’t be so sure you’ll remain content to confine your computing to occasional surfing, spreadsheets, and Minesweeper. There are a lot of really fantastic things you can do on computers nowadays, from downloading music (legally or otherwise) to designing your dream house to editing your own movies and creating your own DVDs. Once you get a taste for what’s out there, you might find your horizons opening up a lot … and therefore, you shouldn’t base your purchasing decision on the assumption that your needs will remain modest.
Here’s my take on it, FWIW:
Windows
Advantages: Lots of software (esp. games and specialty programs) and peripherals to choose from. Relatively cheaper hardware. Ubiquitous: if you have problems, it’s no trouble finding a Windows user to help you.
Disadvantages: Less secure, requiring more vigilance from you. Generally requires more support and upkeep than Macintosh.
Macintosh
Advantages: Much more secure operating system. Includes free best-of-class multimedia software that offsets higher h/w cost. Superior user interface (MHO). Generally requires less support than Windows PCs.
Disadvantages: Less available software and peripherals. (Though you can play Minesweeper. :)) Smaller user base can mean difficulty finding hands-on help. Hardware cost is higher.
Your third option is a cheap white box PC with Linux installed. I have no firsthand experience with Linux, but even many Linux users don’t recommend it for the non- savvy. Using a Linux box will keep MS off your system and save you some money, but might eat up a lot of your time and limit what you can do relative to Windows or even Macintosh.
Disclaimer: I’m a computer technician with a lot of experience of the Microsoft side.
A lot of good stuff has been stated so I won’t repeat it.
You’ve stated that you’re poor and concerned about viruses et al. A new Mac or PC is therefore out of the question. Given your limited requirements, a second-hand PC running Linux would be ideal provided you’re prepared to put in the time required to learn. If Linux appears too great a leap, fear not: a Windows 2000 or XP system can be secured -
First you need a firewall: I recommend ZoneAlarm.
Second you need antivirus software: I use McAfee - it’s not perfect but it works.
Third you need to not use Outlook or Outllook Express: many modern worms target these platforms. There are freeware or low-cost alternatives, I suggest you evaluate them.
Fourth, and this applies to all platforms, you need to learn to not use your computer with administrative or root privileges - set up an admin account and then set up a second, user-level, account and use that for day-to-day access.
Well, you’ll notice that I didn’t question Steelerphan’s post—that’s because he did address her concerns over not wanting to use MS products.
The bulk of her post was (and still is) a reluctance to use MS products, and a willingness to change. It seemed that some people are permenantly switched onto “Get a PC, it’s cheaper” mode, no matter what the OP repeats over, and over, and over again.
If you read her next post, you’ll see there’s more to it than that. She’s also interested in change.
I suspect that some of you, when you hear that someone wants a “change,” will try very hard to discourage them from making that change. Why?
Oh, I wouldn’t say that I have no use for PCs. I do like my PC well enough, as long as it’s running Windows XP (I am not overly fond of Windows 98).
However, if you want to not worry about viruses at all, or spyware at all, then a PC running Windows is probably not your best option. I am not telling you that I sweat bullets every time I turn on my PC, worried that I’ve got a virus. I don’t. Not really. But I have to be careful about always keeping my virus software updated, always keeping Windows updated, and so forth. My sister (who sounds like she might be a little more like you), did catch one of those worms or something a while ago, simply because she forgot to update Windows. (Guess who had to do the tech support and get the damned thing off her PC? That’s right, me.) I have a friend who I consider to be moderately tech-savvy, and he got a virus that was so bad that it wiped out his entire hard drive. So, while I don’t sweat bullets everyday, worrying about viruses, I do personally know people who have suffered from them. Viruses and worms are real, and occasionally people do get them on their computers.
So, if you 100% don’t want to waste any brain cells with viruses? Then don’t get a Windows-based PC. If you are willing to always update Windows and always be Johnny-on-the spot with all the different Ad-aware programs and virus updaters (which you can do—millions of people do it), then you will probably be okay with a Windows-based PC. It’s up to you.
I know the feeling. And I want to encourage that feeling of adventure in you. I think feeling adventuresome ultimately leads to being more comfortable with any computer (Mac, PC, whatever) and that’s a good thing.
A cheap PC or Mac (used off of eBay, even) will do the trick. As long as you’re willing to keep up the anti-virus maintenence on the PC, that is . . .
Either get a PC with a long warranty (I hear that Dells are good), or you might want to consider a Mac. I am pretty tech-phobic (as far as trying to “fix” my computer) and I have always had better luck fixing my Macs than I have with my PCs. Of course, this could just be me, but my Macs seemed to be easier to maintain on my own. YMMV.
Really, if you don’t want to worry about maintenence, get a computer (Mac, PC, Linux) with a long warranty. Because there is no guarantee, even with the highest-end computer, that you won’t have problems.
Not necessarily. I’ve never had a single problem with any viruses ever. As with any computer, when you get it set up you need to lock it down. Default installs on most systems, including Linux installs, are not necessarily put into a paranoid state, so to speak. If you can configure a computer to be secure, it doesn’t “really” matter what you’re using.
I don’t see any pressing reason to switch to another OS, other than the price of an OS. If you particularly hate Microsoft, well, then any other computer will do. You can find cheap ones all over the place. But they’ll probably have to be configured to be as secure as you desire anyway.
MacOS X, by default, ships with all security risks turned off, and without a root account. Unless the user specifically starts a server, creates a root account (not needed), or opens ports nilly-willy, there are almost no vulnerabilities that can be exploited.
I can’t remember if the built-in firewall is turned on or off by default, though.
Hie thee to Ebay. Get a used iMac. Pay no more than $250 tops. Consider also a G3 “Beige” desktop or tower for even less (or a bit more with monitor, you’ll need a monitor unless you’ve already got one). No Microsoft unless you want it, I promise.
Or go PC if you prefer. Get a Pentium II 350 or something in its class. Install Linux. Red Hat is probably easiest if you are not a geek and don’t like to tinker.
You do not need the latest hardware to do what you’re describing, and therefore if budget is as much a concern as you say, buy 2 year old or older hardware and save lots of money.
I use SuSE, and it’s what I tend to recommend. The install is easy-peasy (I’ve installed Windows a number of times, and SuSE’s installer beats it all to hell). Your friendly local LUG will likely be more than happy to hook you up with an install in any case, as was previously mentioned. It has particularly good hardware detection as well.
My recommendations for the beginning Linux user:
Learn enough commands to get around without your window manager. Also, install at least a text-based web browser (SuSE installs w3m by default) in addition to your regular one, so you can search for a solution to your problems. Remember, apropos and man are your friends. And, it’s amazing how many little problems can be solved with the combined use of ps -A and kill -9.
Know where to find software. Freshmeat.net and sourceforge.net are particularly good sources; I found not just one, but a good number of Minesweeper clones.
Don’t be afraid to ask questions; but be thorough (simple hardware profile and error messages, at a minimum).
If you’re going to be connecting over dialup, do NOT get a winmodem! I don’t even recommend them for Windows users, for they suck your processor cycles like you wouldn’t believe. Back in the day when I was connecting over dialup and was running a less-than-friendly distro (Debian), I got a Lucent call-waiting internal modem. The benefits were threefold: It didn’t tie up my processor like the old winmodem I was running, I actually got a faster connection, and (if you have call waiting) the modem rang when I was using it and someone was calling, so I could disconnect and answer the phone.
I’ve used Linux for about two years now, and for most of that I haven’t had another Linux user to call on personally for help. Having one near does help, however.
More than a year ago I purchased a 166 MHz computer for $85.
64 meg of RAM, 3 gig hard disk. I installed a 40 gig drive, worked fine. I’m running LINUX though. Prices of used computers keep falling in relation to power.
$200 will get 500 MHz now, 128 meg of RAM, at least 10 gig drive.
I think we should all migrate to LINUX. Microsoft could either adapt its apps or go out of business. LOL
The Jan '83 BYTE magazine has the most extensive benchmark I have ever seen. The fastest computer was an IBM 3033 running assembly language. My 533 MHz Celeron running C under Mandrake LINUX beat it. I estimate a 300 MHz computer is about equivalent to a 3033. It cost $1,000,000 and took a max of 32 megabytes. We can get early 80’s mainframe power in used computers for less than $300. What shall we do with that power?
Shall we let the computer industry have us waste power on silly high resolution games. Doubling the resolution quadruples the need for processing power. 4 times as many dots.
Well, speaking as an authorized Macintosh repair technician at a well known Vermont based Mac retailer (don’t worry, i’m not going to spam the boards ) if you have any Mac questions, feel free to e-mail me, switching platforms is not as difficult as you may think
my e-mail address is;
Russ@buggeroffspammerssmalldog.com
(obviously, remove the buggeroffspammers and you have my address )
i’ll respond to your questions as best i can, personally, i avoid m$ like the plague of evil they are (oops, sorry, not going to start a platform war, sorry), so i’m happy to say i have almost no working knowledge of windoze, my hatred of windoze is based off the convoluted history of the two companies, which i’ll not detail here…
and there was much rejoycing, YAAY!!
most of the consumer Macs (eMac, iMac, iBook) come with a copy of AppleWorks, an integrated suite of programs consisting of word processing, spreadsheet, database, drawing, and painting programs, obviously they’re not as powerful as the competing professional apps, but they’re a good, basic start, AW is compatible with the newer Word and Excel formats (i believe it’ll open W98 and E98 and newer )
there should be a shareware “minesweeper” clone out there, best bet would be to hit http://versiontracker.com and search for “minesweeper”, it should bring up some hits…
well, considering windoze was based off code stolen from App…oops, sorry, force of habit there
sounds like you initially used the “classic” style Mac, built in 9" black and white screen, 3.5" floppy, slower than mollasses going uphill in winter and almost no ram to speak of…
new Macs are comprable in speed to the equivalent peecee, and considering the two platforms share a “common heritage” most of your windoze knowledge should transfer over with a slight readjustment phase
(the Xerox Star was the grandfather to the modern GUI based computer, Apple licenced the technology from Xerox with a legal stock trade, founders stock traded for the rights to the technology in the Star)
i’m going to go against the typical “MacAddict” party line here on windoze viruses (mydoom and their ilk) and admit that yes, there are certainly MORE viruses out for windoze than on the Mac (more on that later), but most of the modern MyDooms will only spread IF THE END USER OPENS THE ATTACHED FILE, if you see a mydoom in your inbox and just delete it, the viral payload should not run
as long as you practice “safe” computing, either platform should be relatively virus-free, it’ll just be harder to keep a windoze box free of viruses due to the sheer number of them
On the Mac side, yes there are a few (less than 100) viruses for the Mac, but 99% of them are for the older Mac OS’s (System 6 thru OS 9.X.X), most Macs are now running OS X (latest version is 10.3.3 “Panther”) OS X is a Unix based OS (specifically, BSD version 4.4), and even though there are Unix viruses (extremely rare), they’d have to be recompiled to run on OS X
this of course doesn’t count the “word macro” viruses which are cross-platform compatible, as long as you’re running word or excel, if you don’t run word or excel, you can’t be infected by them, but you could still pass them on to pc users
OS X has been out for 3 years now, and in all that time, there have been NO viruses released that specifically target OS X, OS 9 viruses won’t work in OS X, the worst they could do would be to damage the Classic compatibility layer, which can be deleted and reinstalled easily
in all my time of using Macs (i’ve used Macs since the days of the original Mac 128K back in '84, and have one that still runs perfectly) i can count on one hand the number of times i’ve dealt with a virus, just once…
i was popping an old floppy in the drive of my old 7500, and Norton flagged a virus, “nVir-B”, a really OLD virus, so old in fact, that it WASN’T COMPATIBLE with OS 9, the only time i ever encountered a virus, and it was incompatible with my OS
no arguments here
three words… Free Tech Support (from your friend)
if you have a friend that’s a Mac user, so much the better, he can ease your transition between platforms
if you were to purchase a copy of Virtual PC (ironically, now owned by micro$oft), you could run windoze in a software emulated environment, you could run OS 9, OS X, Unix, and Windoze on a Mac (you’d be running OS 9 and 'Doze in a software emulation environment)
VPC is no speed demon, and is NOT a solution for games (maybe minesweeper, but certainly not any modern game), but if you need to run an archaic “windoze only” app, VPC might be a viable option
Consumer Macs come with AppleWorks, Safari (web browser) internet exploiter, and the iLife apps iPhoto (light photo editing and storage, Apple calls it the "digital Shoebox), iTunes (music player, .mp3 ripper, iTunes Music Store client), iDVD(burn your own home movies to DVD), iMovie (create home movies with a FireWire/iLink/IEEE1384 equipped Digital Camcorder), GarargeBand (create music), some of them come with Quicken
the air will seem fresher, colors will be brighter and more intense, food will taste better, you’ll feel happier, your car will get better fuel mileage, you’ll lose weight while sitting on your posterior, your I.Q. will increase by at least 50 points…
honestly, it’s just a computer, an inanimate object, aside from not having to deal with the Blue Screen Of Death, the constant assault of viruses, unstable, crash-prone apps and the OS, not much will change
i will say this, OS X is essentially bulletproof, it just DOES NOT CRASH, sure, you can have applications crash, that happens on any platform, but you won’t have a crash that will take the entire OS down and force you to reboot (unless you’re running some iffy beta release software), my iBook for example, has been up and running for a year and a half with no crashing, OS X is a rock, it does not crash, and “Plug and Play” that actually WORKS (P&P was a term coined by m$, Mac users didn’t need a term for it, as P&P always worked on a Mac, there was no need to name a basic functionality of the Mac).
good question, i’m wondering that myself ;), my G4 has a Kensington Expert Mouse Pro trackball that has 4 buttons, a scrollwheel, and 6 “quick launch” buttons on it, i use a Logitech TrackMan Marble 2 button trackball with my iMac, my PowerBook G4, and my iBook
yes, you read that right, in my cramped, one bedroom apartment, i have 4 Macs , you’ll find once you’ve adjusted to the Mac, you’ll want more of them, they’ve got so much personality (there i go again, anthropomorphizing an inanimate object… )
most Mac apps don’t need more than one button anyway, but you can always hold down the “Control” key when you click to pull up a contextual menu (similar to a right-click in windoze), and any multi-button USB mouse is automatically recognized in OS X anyway, no drivers needed
just wait until you try a Mac using AirPort, there’s nothing like wandering around, surfing the web, completely unencumbered by wires, the average AirPort range is 150 feet, but i hacked in an external antenna in my base station, now i have at least double the range, and can be out in the yard, surfing the net
if you have any Mac questions, feel free to drop me an e-mail
I’m not going to advocate a Mac, pc with windows or Linux system. Just adding a comment about viruses.
I’ve had my last pc for about 3 years and in that time it has had plenty of web-surfing. My wife and I have always used web-based email. Because of all the talk about so many computers out there having a virus without the owners knowing it, in January I bought a copy of Norton Antivirus. I updated the software and searched the system for viruses – none were found.
I’ve done plenty of downloading and surfing all over in 3 years, but we never had a virus problem. The concern about viruses shouldn’t determine what computer to buy! Go for a computer that will meet your needs and you can easily avoid the virus problem.
As for what I’d recommend, go with what is most compatible with your friends and work for your family. I used Mac’s all the time through college for my minor and they work great. I currently have and use pc’s. That reason is that most of my friends have pc’s and that is what’s used at work for my wife and I. So we can do work at home as necessary and share software with friends.
I must say that Windows XP is much better than 95/98/ME! If you want to go with a pc, spend a little more and get one that can run XP! This would require a newer system. My last computer (just upgraded this week) was running XP with a 700MHz Athlon and 256MB of ram. It wasn’t very fast, but it worked just fine and played some good games too.
Anyway, assess what you want out of the computer and go from there. Mac’s are very nice because they come ready to go right out of the box. I spent a few hours the last couple of days installing all of my software onto the pc and tweeking things the way I like it. Good luck!!
) if you have any Mac questions, feel free to e-mail me, switching platforms is not as difficult as you may think