# Help Me Remember This Scene In Return of the King (the book, not the movie) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 22, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289 "2015-11-22T18:01:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/1 "2015-11-22T18:01:36Z")
I vaguely remember a sequence of events that went something like this: one of the Men in Gondor’s army committed an offense of some kind - abandoned his post, disobeyed an order, something. But he did it for the right reasons - to save a life, to send a warning, something. Once Aragron is installed as King, he adjudicates the man’s case. Being just, he relieves the man of his post for his offense. But being wise and merciful, he rewards the man’s valor with an ever better post. Is this ringing a bell? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/2 "2015-11-22T18:25:29Z")
Beregond. When Denethor went mad, and tried to kill himself and Faramir, Beregond disobeyed orders and saved Faramir. > **[Beregond (Captain)](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Beregond_(Captain))** > > Beregond, son of Baranor, was the first Captain of the White Company, the guard of Faramir, Prince of Ithilien, and previously, a Guard of the Citadel in Minas Tirith. He is best known for rescuing Faramir from the madness of Denethor during the... > [@](#): > > During the Siege of Gondor, Beregond received news from Pippin that Denethor intended to kill both himself and the seemingly-dead Faramir. Leaving his post, he fought the door guards of the place where Denethor had taken Faramir in order to reach him, until the arrival of Gandalf and Pippin, whereupon Faramir was saved. After protecting Faramir, he carried him to the Houses of Healing and stood guard over him until he awoke. > [@](#): > > After the War of the Ring, Beregond was brought before the newly crowned Aragorn II Elessar to answer for the abandonment of his post, as well as the murders of those who stood in his way as he raced to rescue Faramir. Recognizing that what he did was out of love for his lord, he did not impose the death penalty upon him; the newly-crowned king’s largesse allowed for Beregond to simply be banished from Minas Tirith and live in Ithilien to serve Faramir, for whom he had broken the laws to rescue. He was also promoted to the rank of Captain of the White Company. ---
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/3 "2015-11-22T18:56:07Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Beregond. > > When Denethor went mad, and tried to kill himself and Faramir, Beregond disobeyed orders and saved Faramir. > > [Beregond (Captain) | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Beregond_(Captain)) Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/4 "2015-11-22T19:46:26Z")
You’re welcome. My copy of the book is in a box somewhere up in the attic, or I would have quoted directly from Tolkien. It’s one of Aragorn’s more eloquent speeches. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/5 "2015-11-22T22:15:15Z")
Since you are here … Am I mistaken or was there a no shit relationship between the Eowyn of Rohan and Aragorn until the hospital scene where Faramir was being healed and they hooked up leaving Aragorn free to go back to Arwen? It seems awful odd that he never seemed to mention being betrothed to Arwen … I don’t really remember it being really covered in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/6 "2015-11-22T23:02:39Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Since you are here … > Am I mistaken or was there a no shit relationship between the Eowyn of Rohan and Aragorn until the hospital scene where Faramir was being healed and they hooked up leaving Aragorn free to go back to Arwen? It seems awful odd that he never seemed to mention being betrothed to Arwen … I don’t really remember it being really covered in the movie. The attraction between Eowyn and Aragorn was entirely one-sided in both the book and the film. Aragorn’s betrothal to Arwen was never mentioned at all in the book until the two got hitched at the end. In the film (I don’t remember if it’s the theatrical or extended edition), Eowyn sees the necklace Arwen gave him and deduces it was given to him by a woman. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2015, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/7 "2015-11-22T23:49:59Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > The attraction between Eowyn and Aragorn was entirely one-sided in both the book and the film. Aragorn’s betrothal to Arwen was never mentioned at all in the book until the two got hitched at the end. In the film (I don’t remember if it’s the theatrical or extended edition), Eowyn sees the necklace Arwen gave him and deduces it was given to him by a woman. Arwwn is hardly mentioned at all in the main body of the books, although the background story of her and Aragorn is told in one of the appendices. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/8 "2015-11-23T00:27:25Z")
I believe there’s a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it reference to Aragorn and Arwen in the Lothlorien chapters. At one point Frodo is standing with Aragorn on a hill somewhere and he sees a kind of vision of a younger Aragorn courting a beautiful elf-maiden - clearly Arwen, but only if you already know the story for another reason. Then Aragorn makes a speech ‘…this is the heart of Elvendom on earth. And here my heart rests also…’ and the passage ends with ‘and then he left that place, and never returned as a mortal man’ ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/9 "2015-11-23T01:22:29Z")
If only it was that easy to make a girl turn her attention away from the hottest most electrifying guy in the party, towards you instead. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/10 "2015-11-23T10:14:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Arwwn is hardly mentioned at all in the main body of the books, although the background story of her and Aragorn is told in one of the appendices. I do remember that, though I could have sworn that in the books Aragorn was spending an awful lot of time with Eowyn. I think she was better off with Faramir anyway - I always preferred him to Boromir. And I still wish they had done the Scouring of the Shire properly in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/11 "2015-11-23T10:31:54Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I believe there’s a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it reference to Aragorn and Arwen in the Lothlorien chapters. At one point Frodo is standing with Aragorn on a hill somewhere and he sees a kind of vision of a younger Aragorn courting a beautiful elf-maiden - clearly Arwen, but only if you already know the story for another reason. > > Then Aragorn makes a speech ‘…this is the heart of Elvendom on earth. And here my heart rests also…’ and the passage ends with ‘and then he left that place, and never returned as a mortal man’ Not in Lothlorien but at Rivendell - she lives with Elrond, her father, although of course she is Galadriel’s granddaughter. It’s the same Aragorn, but he cleans up well and Frodo is quite taken aback to see it. ETA: In the books Eowyn was following Aragorn around like a lost puppy, but it was wholly one-sided and when he set off for the Paths of the Dead he told her he didn’t need any more company and she had her own duty to do, although he realized very well what was going on with her and those who knew him well could see how much it distressed him to give Eowyn the air. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/12 "2015-11-23T11:01:48Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > Not in Lothlorien but at Rivendell - she lives with Elrond, her father, although of course she is Galadriel’s granddaughter. No, she does live in Rivendell, but he originally met her in Lothlorien, and the scene I’m thinking of is there. On a hill, after the Mirror scene (I think). She’s not really there, it’s kind of a Frodo dream-sequence … or a sort of shared dream. I’d look up the exact quote if I had a LOTR handy. Why don’t I have a LOTR on my shelf, huh? Tell me - _what’s wrong with me that I don’t have a LOTR on my shelf!!!_ Ahem. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/13 "2015-11-23T11:26:40Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > No, she does live in Rivendell, but he originally met her in Lothlorien, and the scene I’m thinking of is there. On a hill, after the Mirror scene (I think). She’s not really there, it’s kind of a Frodo dream-sequence … or a sort of shared dream. > > I’d look up the exact quote if I had a LOTR handy. Why don’t I have a LOTR on my shelf, huh? Tell me - _what’s wrong with me that I don’t have a LOTR on my shelf!!!_ > > Ahem. Ack. Yes. Not after the Mirror scene, but when they first arrive in Lothlorien, Frodo seems to see a younger Aragorn in white speaking in Elvish to someone who isn’t there: _Arwen vanimelda, namarie!_. Took a bit of finding. And I think you’re right about their original meeting - which, if I’m remembering the Appendix correctly, Galadriel engineered. (Didn’t have LotR handy but it was a short walk to the school library.) ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/14 "2015-11-23T12:23:51Z")
Yeah, that’s the one! Geek Out! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/15 "2015-11-23T14:09:04Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > I believe there’s a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it reference to Aragorn and Arwen in the Lothlorien chapters. At one point Frodo is standing with Aragorn on a hill somewhere and he sees a kind of vision of a younger Aragorn courting a beautiful elf-maiden - clearly Arwen, but only if you already know the story for another reason. > > Then Aragorn makes a speech ‘…this is the heart of Elvendom on earth. And here my heart rests also…’ and the passage ends with ‘and then he left that place, and never returned as a mortal man’ The first hint of the relationship between Aragorn and Arwen, I believe, is dropped in the Rivendell chapters… Bilbo asks Aragorn why he wasn’t at the welcoming feast, and says pointedly, “The Lady Arwen was there.” ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/16 "2015-11-23T14:22:23Z")
> [@Aspidistra](#): > > No, she does live in Rivendell, but he originally met her in Lothlorien, and the scene I’m thinking of is there. Hmmm. [Encyclopedia of Arda](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/a/aragorn.html)says they met in Rivendell when he was 20, but doesn’t give a reference: > [@](#): > > In Rivendell his identity was concealed, and he was known only by the name ‘Estel’ throughout his childhood years. It was only at the age of twenty that Elrond revealed to him his true ancestry, and gave him two tokens of his station as Heir of Isildur: the Ring of Barahir and the Shards of Narsil. It was at this time, too, that he first met Arwen. Edit: better answers (than the encyclopedia) [with quotes here](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/90515/how-did-aragorn-and-arwen-first-meet-and-why-did-they-get-together). ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/17 "2015-11-23T14:24:39Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/18 "2015-11-23T15:48:26Z")
I’m sure I read once, somewhere, that when Elrond found out that Aragorn was wooing his daughter, he told him that he would not only not have his daughter, but no woman at all, until he wore the Crown and wielded the Scepter of both kingdoms. Elves are really good at that whole “you’re not good enough for my daughter” thing. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/19 "2015-11-23T16:44:59Z")
Beren had a similar experience. _Eight Simple Rules_, indeed… ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289/20 "2015-11-23T16:56:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I’m sure I read once, somewhere, that when Elrond found out that Aragorn was wooing his daughter, he told him that he would not only not have his daughter, but no woman at all, until he wore the Crown and wielded the Scepter of both kingdoms. > > Elves are really good at that whole “you’re not good enough for my daughter” thing. It was actually two separate speeches. When Aragorn was in his 20s and had first met Arwen, Elrond told him he has many challenges ahead of him, and wouldn’t marry any woman for years: “Aragorn, Arathorn’s son, Lord of the Dúnedain, listen to me! A great doom awaits you, either to rise above the height of all your fathers since the days of Elendil, or to fall into darkness with all that is left of your kin. Many years of trial lie before you. You shall neither have wife, nor bind any woman to you in troth, until your time comes and you are found worthy of it.” So Aragorn took off for a few decades, and failed to die conveniently out of sight as Elrond probably intended. When he met Arwen again in Lorien and she fell in love with him, Elrond gave him the you’re-not-good-enough-for-my-daughter speech: “My son, years come when hope will fade, and beyond them little is clear to me. And now a shadow lies between us. Maybe, it has been appointed so, that by my loss the kingship of Men may be restored. Therefore, though I love you, I say to you: Arwen Undómiel shall not diminish her life’s grace for less cause. She shall not be the bride of any Man less than the King of both Gondor and Arnor. To me then even our victory can bring only sorrow and parting - but to you hope of joy for a while. For a while. Alas, my son! I fear that to Arwen the Doom of Men may seem hard at the ending” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-remember-this-scene-in-return-of-the-king-the-book-not-the-movie/738289.md?page=2)