# Help me understand 6/8 time **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 6, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370 "2007-11-06T02:09:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/1 "2007-11-06T02:09:55Z")
All right, here’s what I think I know: 6/8 time is 6 eighth-notes/quavers per measure. It has six counts per measure. It has 2 “beats” per measure. Now, this confuses me. If a song is “Allegro,” am I _counting_ quickly (i.e. six quick counts per measure) or “beating” quickly (i.e. 2 quick beats per measure, each one equally a dotted quarter-note)? Please correct me if my premises are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![runninblue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbce88/32.png) [@runninblue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/runninblue)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/2 "2007-11-06T03:46:13Z")
Typically when music is written in 6/8 it is felt with two beats. The way I seem to interpret it in my head is that it is comparable to a 2/4 measure with a quarter note triplet subbeat. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/3 "2007-11-06T03:51:51Z")
You know how when you learn 4/4, they teach you that there’s two “big” beats and two “small” beats, and the second big beat is slightly smaller? You know: Da-da-Da-da. That’s primarily what differentiates it from 2/4, which has the same rhythmic math, but has a single “big beat” at the beginning of each measure. Da-da. There’s an analogous relationship between 3/4 and 6/8. 3/4: Da-da-da. 6/8: Da-da-da Da-da-da. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/4 "2007-11-06T03:53:06Z")
**ONE** twothree **TWO** twothree / **ONE** twothree **TWO** twothree The tricky concepts are a) that the dotted quarter note gets the beat. It’s more intuitive for a non-fractional note (quarter, half) to get the beat. b) that the beat note _isn’t_ on the bottom of the time signature. It usually is. Think of it as a fraction in lowest terms. You couldn’t write a time signature of **2 over dotted quarter** , so you express it as **6/8.** ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/5 "2007-11-06T05:36:40Z")
So, how does 6/8 differ from 3/4 except for having twice as many notes per measure? Couldn’t you just write it in 3/4 and have twice as many measures? ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/6 "2007-11-06T06:06:30Z")
An interesting song to listen to where you can hear the difference is in the musical _Man of La Mancha_. The song is called _Dulcinea_. The measures alternate between 6/8 and 3/4 time. Throughout the whole song. I can still remember my junior high choir director counting it out. “ONE two three FOUR five six / ONE and TWO and THREE and / ONE two three FOUR five six / ONE and TWO and THREE and”…etc. If you can find a version, listen to it, and appreciate it in a whole new light. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/7 "2007-11-06T06:16:05Z")
The fractions don’t reduce in time signatures, **psychobunny** - you’d have to write it in 3/8 to use twice as many measures; this would (or ought to, anyway) change the way it sounds by having the downbeat every three instead of six. If you doubled all the note values, you’d have it in 6/4. This is what’s usually used for three sets of double-beats, to get back to the OP, or possibly one set of six. So the basic difference between /8 and /4 is that /8 is usually for grouping in threes, and /4 for grouping in twos. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/8 "2007-11-06T06:53:32Z")
[QUOTE=Rico] An interesting song to listen to where you can hear the difference is in the musical _Man of La Mancha_. The song is called _Dulcinea_. The measures alternate between 6/8 and 3/4 time. Throughout the whole song. [/QUOTE] The other common example of this is _America_ from _West Side Story_: _ **I** _ like to _ **BE** _ in A- | _ **Me** _-_ **ri** _-_ **ca** _ | _ **O** _-K by _ **ME** _ in A- | _ **Me** _-_ **ri** _-_ **ca** _ | … ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2007, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/9 "2007-11-06T11:30:57Z")
And _633 Squadron_, intentionally (a sort of musical pun on the name, as it’s going 6-3, 6-3, 6-3… not actually 6-3-3 which would be harder to manage). The _Mexican Hat Dance_ is another instance of fast 6/8 time - you’d beat that in two as it’s far too fast to beat the individual quavers. ---
**Author:** ![K364](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k364/32/5_2.png) [@K364](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/K364)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/10 "2007-11-07T01:04:47Z")
[QUOTE=psychobunny] So, how does 6/8 differ from 3/4 except for having twice as many notes per measure? Couldn’t you just write it in 3/4 and have twice as many measures? [/QUOTE] 6/8 is a compound meter: there are two beats to a bar, a strong one and a weak one (One,two|One,two|One,two)… Each beat is further divided into three (One da da, two da da|One da da, two da da|One da da,two da da) So, you could translate it into 3/4 or 3/8, but the pulse should be in two’s. I think 3/4 should be played with a bit of a lilt, definitely a pulse in 3’s. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/11 "2007-11-07T04:26:02Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] And _633 Squadron_, intentionally (a sort of musical pun on the name, as it’s going 6-3, 6-3, 6-3… not actually 6-3-3 which would be harder to manage). The _Mexican Hat Dance_ is another instance of fast 6/8 time - you’d beat that in two as it’s far too fast to beat the individual quavers. [/QUOTE] Ah hah! A hint. So I can tap out 6/8 in either 6s or 2s, depending on the song? This would let me adjust the tempo a little more nicely, to boot, eh? ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/12 "2007-11-07T05:22:07Z")
Re-reading I realized I read the question wrong. Yes, sometimes the tempo indication means 2 counts or 6, depending on the song. Often the style of the song makes it clear, or there is further indication (like dotted eighth note = 70 or something like that). I’ve even seen multiple indications (for when played in two or six) but I think that was only in practice material. Sometimes even full measures don’t get a downbeat. The scherzo in Beethoven’s Ninth is in 3/4, but at such a clip (_molto vivace_) that it’s three or four _measures_ to a downbeat. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/13 "2007-11-07T06:21:12Z")
[QUOTE=Speaker for the Dead] Ah hah! A hint. So I can tap out 6/8 in either 6s or 2s, depending on the song? This would let me adjust the tempo a little more nicely, to boot, eh? [/QUOTE] Yes, that’s spot on. I prefer to reverse **K364** ’s explanation, for the terminology to make sense: a compound metre takes fast quaver beats, and groups (i.e. compounds!) them into larger beats. When teaching it, I demonstrate it visually, relating it to how I’d conduct 3/4, and 4/4. Then 6/8, conducting six beats, but then it needs to go faster, so it becomes ridiculous. So I conduct the two large beats instead. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/14 "2007-11-07T06:28:49Z")
[QUOTE=panamajack] Re-reading I realized I read the question wrong. Yes, sometimes the tempo indication means 2 counts or 6, depending on the song. Often the style of the song makes it clear, or there is further indication (like dotted eighth note = 70 or something like that). [/quote] I presume you mean dotted quarter? Unless you’re talking about 6/16 or similar 😉 Yes, sometimes the tempo is slow enough that the six beats are all felt, however, there’s still a sense of grouping them into threes in terms of the phrasing, of the harmony (perhaps one chord per half-bar) and so on. If it were a slow 3/4 you’d also feel six sub-beats, but with the different grouping (into twos) evident. > [@](#): > > Sometimes even full measures don’t get a downbeat. The scherzo in Beethoven’s Ninth is in 3/4, but at such a clip (_molto vivace_) that it’s three or four _measures_ to a downbeat. A more extreme case occurs in the final moments of Elgar’s _Enigma Variations_, at the very last reappearance of the theme. He puts brackets across three bars indicatings that this is now to be a single conducted beat - IIRC they’re three bars of 2/2. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/15 "2007-11-07T08:36:40Z")
I use **Band In A Box** music accompaniment software. This only allows a choice of 3/4 or 4/4, but sometimes I want to score something in 6/8. So I choose a 4/4 style with a triplet feel, and then run the output through a midi tool that tweaks the note durations to get everything right. Works a treat. Si ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/16 "2007-11-07T16:52:48Z")
[QUOTE=si\_blakely] I use **Band In A Box** music accompaniment software. This only allows a choice of 3/4 or 4/4, but sometimes I want to score something in 6/8. So I choose a 4/4 style with a triplet feel, and then run the output through a midi tool that tweaks the note durations to get everything right. Works a treat. Si [/QUOTE] That’s pretty much how I learned 6/8: like 2/4 with triplets. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-6-8-time/425370/17 "2007-11-07T19:11:25Z")
A lot of John Phillip Sousa music is in 6/8. Amazingly enough, his music was considered ‘dance’ music of the day. You did the new ‘two-step’ to his stuff instead of waltzing all the time. 6/8, 9/8, 12/8 are very similar to 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4 respectivly with triplets.