# Help me understand comic books, post-1965 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2010, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502 "2010-01-11T13:52:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/41 "2010-01-12T00:01:50Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > The reason for the New Universe is that Marvel (probably wrongly, as it turns out) was terrified that Jack Kirby would sue them. > > \ > > Apparently the theory was that IF Kirby sued and won, they could ditch all the Kirby characters and replace them with the revamps. If that didn’t fly in court (and I doubt it would have), they would have the New Universe to fall back on so they could keep publishing _something_. No cites–but creators like Doug Moench (IIRC) and Steve Englehart have pretty much said that’s what was going on. I’m going to ask for a cite anyways. You talked about this on this board years ago and I’ve never seen it mentioned anywhere else. You said creators have talked about it so how about a link to that? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/42 "2010-01-12T00:07:45Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Hmm, it seems there are actually three [counter-earths](http://marvel.wikia.com/Counter-Earth), the one created by the High Evolutionary which is one micro second out of synch and therefore its own universe (Earth-1123), the one that is on the opposite side of the sun that Franklin Richards from Earth 616 created, and one in the Ultimate universe that is ruled by Dinosaurs. I’m pretty sure 712 was originally called Counter-Earth, as well. It’s only listed as AKA Earth-S on that wiki, but I’m pretty sure the first time the SS were mentioned as being from another universe, it was called the Counter-Earth… The third, BTW, is not from the Ultimate-verse, but from Spider-Man Unlimited, which is a completely different universe, based on a cartoon that came out in 1999. I’m one of the three people who liked the series (the cartoon, anyway…never saw the comic). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/43 "2010-01-12T00:22:01Z")
Anybody wanna buy a Spider-Man 252? The story’s weak but the condition’s good. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/44 "2010-01-12T01:08:58Z")
I LOVE power rings! I rarely read GL, but I go nuts when they issue rings you can wear. I was buying a black ring and got an issue of Blackest Night #1. I find that Bruce Wayne is dead. How’d that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/45 "2010-01-12T01:21:09Z")
Killed by Darkseid at the end of Final Crisis. He used a relatively new power called The Omega Sanction (rather than his usual Omega Beams), which he refers to as The Death That Is Life. So, the Bat’s dead\*, but his soul is being reborn through multiple lives, and he’ll be back sometime near the end of the year (probably…that’s when his return mini is set to end). - Or, rather, Bruce Wayne is dead. ‘Batman’ is alive and well - Dick is currently wearing the cowl. He’s star of Batman and Batman and Robin. Detective is being headlined by Batwoman. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/46 "2010-01-12T13:10:44Z")
> [@Asylum](#): > > I’m going to ask for a cite anyways. You talked about this on this board years ago and I’ve never seen it mentioned anywhere else. You said creators have talked about it so how about a link to that? Sorry, no cites. I heard Bill Sinkcevitch (who’s name I can’t spell) touch on it briefly in person, last time I brought it up, I found a cite that (IIRC) Doug Moench mentioned it==which I can’t find again and there was an interview in Comics Buyer’s Guide in the mid-80s with Mark Gruenwald who denied that he was bringing in John Walker for the reasons I listed above. So…that, plus circumstantial evidence is all I got. Believe it or don’t. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/47 "2010-01-12T13:19:38Z")
> [@Strassia](#): > > Hmm, it seems there are actually three [counter-earths](http://marvel.wikia.com/Counter-Earth), the one created by the High Evolutionary which is one micro second out of synch and therefore its own universe (Earth-1123), the one that is on the opposite side of the sun that Franklin Richards from Earth 616 created, and one in the Ultimate universe that is ruled by Dinosaurs. …I thought that Franklin Richards put all the people from the Onslaught-verse on the High Evolutionary’s Counter-Earth. He didn’t actually create the world. Am I misremembering? ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/48 "2010-01-12T15:30:18Z")
**Fenris** that’s a big exaggeration of something with a probably true center. Moench talked about this in the fan press in the '80’s, which started a shitstorm – and Shooter even debunked the rumors in a Bullpen Bulletins (I couldn’t tell you when). But it’s not responsible for every character change over a five year period – if this is something Marvel had really been afraid of (and I think it’s likely they were for a little while), they would have cleared the decks _as soon as possible_. So, I agree, some mid-'80’s changes may have been part of this. It seems the likely impetus for the New Universe, but at the same time management was always hawking editorial to increase the number of titles published. Also, Shooter has said in hindsight interviews that by the time of its publication, everybody knew the NU wouldn’t be successful because management slashed the budget and they couldn’t get many high-profile creators on it. As for the mainstream MU changes, the Spider-Man costume is certainly the most-discussed example, plus Rhodey as Iron Man. And I’ve heard some say that this was the genesis of Beta Ray Bill, although that character is so weird it couldn’t be the whole story. Possibly management told Simonson to come up with a new Thor, but if they were still seriously worried about Kirby by the time BRB was published, they would have asked for another swing. Most likely, it seems likely to me that there was some worry among the brass about Kirby, and so they did want changes to be made. But I expect any urgency about it dissipated pretty quickly, and the implementation of these changes in a mostly half-hearted way (poor implementation of the NU, soon there were two Shellheads instead of just a replacement, the aforementioned Beta Ray Bill, and almost no change to the FF – although The Thing did quit for a while, he still had his own book) supports this. The other stuff you mentioned has almost certainly nothing to do with the Kirby suit. The original X-Men were already off the team – had been for years – although they would show up from time to time. Cyclops was the exception of course, and he did leave the X-Men at about the right time. But Beast, Iceman, and Angel were ensconced at The Defenders, a team with a constantly rotating roster, so it would be quite easy to write them out if needed with no one being the wiser. And Jean Grey was dead! By resurrecting her and putting all five of them together in a new, highly-promoted X-Men spinoff, Marvel was actually exposing itself even more to the threat of a Kirby reclamation of the characters, so I can’t think they took this too seriously by the late '80’s. As for replacing Steve Rogers with John Walker and making Rogers The Captain, that too was a couple years later, and it wouldn’t have made much difference. AFAIK, Walker still wore the same uniform, and of course Rogers was still the same guy, so this wouldn’t have been effective as a way of insulating the book from Kirby’s lawsuit. Moreover, though I haven’t read that stuff, I never got the impression that Walker was meant as anything but a temporary replacement. Again, maybe the idea germinated from an earlier management desire to replace Captain America, but it had been years since anyone cared about that. As for all the other stuff you mention, it too came later than would have been useful for lawsuit defense. The explanation for all those changes are two-fold, I think. First, the relatively freer editorial hand of Tom DeFalco. Shooter was always very eyes-on-the-prize, at least with the top selling titles. DeFalco probably let creators get away with more outrageous stuff – would Shooter have let Simonson disband the Avengers, or Claremont put all the X-Men through the Siege Perilous? Second was the desire, by the '90’s, to generate any conceivable spin-off, new title, or new direction that could be slapped with a chromium cover and sold to the speculative market. And again, maybe the idea to change stuff around which had been in the air a couple years prior did get people thinking about how they could mix stuff up. But by the time the changes happened, it was no longer anything like a motivating cause. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/49 "2010-01-12T16:05:13Z")
What’s the deal with the numbering of Marvel universes? Is there any rhyme or reason? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/50 "2010-01-12T21:14:13Z")
Not as far as I can tell. The fact that Age of Apocalypse and 1602 are numbered lower than 616, despite both being based on kind of borks whatever semblance of a system I could see. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/51 "2010-01-13T13:40:14Z")
Timely article about the Kirby/Marvel lawsuit: [http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap\_en\_ot/us\_marvel\_kirby\_lawsuit](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100109/ap_en_ot/us_marvel_kirby_lawsuit) ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/52 "2010-01-13T14:18:09Z")
Timely—\>Marvel. That (ah say) THAT’S A FUNNY, SON! Witty, that is. Foghorn Fenris 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/53 "2010-01-13T17:16:43Z")
I don’t believe that Marvel’s universe-numbering has any system. I think they just numbered the “main” Marvel Universe 616 to avoid the conceit that in an infinite number of universes, the one that their writers choose to focus on happens to be “#1” in the eyes of the characters (those who are aware of multiple universes, that is) they write. ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2010, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/54 "2010-01-14T02:14:47Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > What’s the deal with the numbering of Marvel universes? Is there any rhyme or reason? No. 616 was IIRC the designation picked for the mainstream MU in Alan Moore’s Captain Britain run and followed by Chris Claremont in Excalibur. But at that time, it was arbitrary, and other books would use other systems. F’rex, Walt Simonson introduced a bunch of parallel Earth Kangs in his Avengers run at about the same time Claremont’s Excalibur was traipsing around the multivers, and they referred to the mainstream MU as 10037 or something like that. It didn’t become standard to use 616 until the early 00’s, IIRC. As for why any given number is picked for any given alternate universe, I think it’s random, or maybe the writer who assigns it will have some in-joke reason. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/55 "2010-01-17T02:26:04Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > For about a 5 year period, Marvel was systematically replacing every! single! character that Kirby had a hand in creating with a “back-up” character with a different costume and secret identity. > > Spider-Man: Kirby designed the costume (not Ditko!) so Spidey got the black costume. > > Iron Man: Tony Stark red/gold armor got replaced by Rhodey in the black/grey war-machine armor. > > X-Men: all the original X-Men got written out of the main (best selling) title and shunted over to X-Factor which could then be cancelled without upsetting X-Men. > > FF: new costumes followed by ditching Reed and Sue. Then the Thing radically changed appearance and She-Thing was created just in case. Human Torch wasn’t created by Kirby so remained untouched. > > Thor: Thunderstrike (dumb name–lighting strikes, not thunder) > > Captain America: Replaced by John Walker and Cap’s uniform was given a black and white variant. > > Hulk: replaced by Rick Jones as a hippie Hulk. > > Note that all these changes happened within like a 4 year period and non-Kirby characters (Daredevil, Doctor Strange, Human Torch, Sub Mariner) were untouched. > > Apparently the theory was that IF Kirby sued and won, they could ditch all the Kirby characters and replace them with the revamps. The timeline on all that stuff is so far over the place, I gotta call foul and conspiracy theory on it. It wasn’t just a 4-5 year period. For instance, the black Spidey costume debuted in 84 (and Spidey was back in the red & blue long before a lot of these changes ever happened), but Rhodey taking over Iron Man in the War Machine armor didn’t happen until 92. (There was an earlier stint of Rhodey as Iron Man, but it was the same red and gold “classic” armor Tony’d been using, which was a post-Kirby design anyway) Rhodey as Iron Man was shortlived anyway and mainly a stunt to sell issues like **the Death of Tony Stark!!!@@~omgwftbbq!** (in the same era that brought us the Death of Superman) and then launch a spinoff once Tony was back. Thunderstrike was similar to War Machine’s situation. 90’s, Thor “dies” (gets banished by Odin, whatever), new guy takes over, Thor comes back, yay two titles now, give us moneys! Rick Jones never was “the” Hulk. He was “a” Hulk for a few issues, and Bruce Banner was still very much around as the grey Hulk at the time. Captain America’s costume wasn’t changed. John Walker as Captain America still wore the same uniform as Steve Rogers. Rogers got a new costume, as the Captain, but again, if Kirby designing the costume was the reason for the changes, it doesn’t track. Captain America was a different guy, but still wearing the old costume. The original X-Men becoming X-Factor and replaced as part of this theory. Hooboy, I don’t even know where to begin with what’s wrong with that one. Just in brief, the originals got (mostly) written out with Giant Sized #1, in 75. X-Factor didn’t start until 86, and the originals returned to the team in 91 – before some of the other claims (War Machine) even happened. More likely, when things change, excitement happens, there’s a sales bump, so if Spidey getting black costume = sales, lets dump Thor in a suit of armor (an earlier thing they did with Thor long before Thunderstrike) etc. Not to say they never did anything as a CYA in case of a suit, just I don’t see it as an all around plot driving force causing every single overhaul a series ever got. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502/56 "2010-01-17T02:48:14Z")
Now what about the rich, important history of the Amalgam universe/Earth-9602? 😛 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-comic-books-post-1965/524502.md?page=2)