# Help me understand non-binary gender **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 2, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826 "2022-09-02T17:31:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/1 "2022-09-02T17:31:11Z")
This is a thread that I’ve been meaning to get up the courage to post and finally got tipped over the edge by the fact that [similar questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pronouns-and-idiot-fascists/970369/283) started getting raised in the pit. This is a very sensitive topic so I want to start with a number of disclaimers: First and foremost: THIS IN NOT THE THREAD TO DISCUSS WHETHER NON-BINARY IDENTITY EXISTS OR IS REAL. IT DOES AND IT IS. Second, I recognize that as a straight CIS male what I’m asking may be akin to a fish asking someone to explain drowning. Its not something that have ever experienced or will ever experience so there may be little room for common reference. Third I recognize that internal feeling regarding identity are beyond dispute. If someone says they feels they are non-binary then they are non-binary that settles it. I don’t need to understand something in order to accept it. If at any time in this thread I seem to be challenging someone’s assertion regarding their identity, then that is not my intent, most likely I am just trying to clarify what they are saying. Which brings us to the final caveat which is that I am still [retraining my instincts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/247) regarding all of this and may accidentally cause offense. If I do please let me know so that I can do better. Now on to the question itself: In trying to explain transgenderism people would use the analogy, “well how would you feel if suddenly you turned into a woman”, to which my initial reaction was that my wife would be very upset, I’d need to get a new wardobe, and it would lead to some complicated explanations to family and friends, but I wouldn’t be suicidal. Now of course never having had to confront such a situation (as a non-drowning fish) I may be fooling myself, but my general feeling was that most of my gender identity came from the fact that I have been socialized to be a male for my entire life, and that if I had been born differently I’d be perfectly happy identifying tomboy lesbian So my model regarding gender identity is that there is a spectrum some people strongly identify as male, some people strongly identify as female, while others like me are more in the middle, and that transgender people where those who were generally near the ends of the spectrum and whose strong feelings of gender identity mismatched their assignment at birth. For those in the middle however, they would probably naturally default to their assigned gender because its easier. This model clearly falls flat when it comes to non-binary. These don’t appear to be people who don’t have strong feelings about their gender identity. They do. They are willing put in significant effort accept significant risk to defy societal convention and assert their non-binary status. In political terms they would appear to be radical centrists. There are a few more models I can come up with to account for this. First is that the model above is more or less correct but those who Identify as non-binary are more in tune with their middle status than I might be, and are less willing to just go with the flow, and so want to positively assert its existence. Second model is that they feel strongly about their gender identity but in different ways in different aspects. For example, bodily they may feel strongly male but socially they may feel strongly female. Third model, they strongly feel the need to experience both aspects in their life. So to use a food analogy, those who identify as male only like pizza, those who identify as female only like tacos, I don’t really care but eat pizza because that’s what I’ve been fed all my life. Non-binary really likes both pizza and tacos and couldn’t imagine having to only eat one or the other. Fourth model is something else I haven’t thought of. Of course also each person is an individual so making a blanket statement about how non-binary people feel is probably a mistake, but I was a good model or analogy to help describe what many or most non-binary people are feeling I would be very interested. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/2 "2022-09-02T17:46:18Z")
I know (and accept) a few NB folks. I don’t understand it either. I’m looking forward to learning from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/3 "2022-09-02T17:54:10Z")
I started a thread on this subject a few years ago and there was some interesting discussion: > [@Fluctuating gender (genderfluid) discussion](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fluctuating-gender-genderfluid-discussion/827646): > > I’d like to have a discussion on genderfluidity. I’m here to learn, but to be honest, I’m starting from a skeptical viewpoint. First, I want to make it clear that I would never discriminate against someone who was or claimed to be genderfluid. I would use the pronoun(s) and name(s) that they prefer. I’m not interested in telling people who are genderfluid that they are not so or trying to convince them to conform to one gender or another. My first point of skepticism is that the claims of g… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/4 "2022-09-02T17:55:47Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > First and foremost: THIS IN NOT THE THREAD TO DISCUSS WHETHER NON-BINARY IDENTITY EXISTS OR IS REAL. ## I’m making this very official. Anyone who violates this will draw a warning. If that is upsetting to you, close the thread and don’t post in it. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/5 "2022-09-02T18:01:42Z")
My takeaway from my own thread (where the OP might violate the guidance above, but the thread moved in a positive direction, I think) was that, if gender is a spectrum, then there will be people towards the middle of that spectrum. So, imagine an electrical signal that can be strongly positive, strongly negative, or something close to zero. If positive is female and negative is male, you might be a strongly negative signal and a cis-woman a strongly positive one. Someone else might be close to the middle, fluctuating depending on the day, their mood, whatever. I don’t think this is an insulting analogy, and I certainly don’t mean to insult anyone. As someone who also struggles to understand some of these ins and outs, I definitely welcome correction, clarification, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/6 "2022-09-02T18:02:21Z")
My sister (who still goes by a female name, albeit one that she chose, and still uses female pronouns) is gender non-binary. Sometimes she feels like she’s male, and wears a binder. Her gender mindset sometimes changes more than once a day, so she tries to make sure she at least has a binder with her wherever she goes. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/7 "2022-09-02T18:11:39Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Sometimes she feels like she’s male, and wears a binder. I think I know what this means, but could you clarify it please. I am woefully ignorant on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/8 "2022-09-02T18:14:50Z")
A binder is something that flattens your chest. I think Judy Garland wore one in the Wizard of Oz to make her seem younger. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/9 "2022-09-02T18:16:37Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think I know what this means, but could you clarify it please. I am woefully ignorant on this subject. Google “chest binder” and click “images.” It’s all tasteful images. Like a compression bra with no cups. It is meant to flatten one’s breast tissue. ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_That](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roger_that/32/8505_2.png) [@Roger\_That](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_That)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/10 "2022-09-02T18:18:22Z")
Not what Mitt Romney meant by “binders of women.” ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/11 "2022-09-02T18:18:40Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > First is that the model above is more or less correct but those who Identify as non-binary are more in tune with their middle status than I might be, and are less willing to just go with the flow, and so want to positively assert its existence. Second model is that they feel strongly about their gender identity but in different ways in different aspects. For example, bodily they may feel strongly male but socially they may feel strongly female. Third model, they strongly feel the need to experience both aspects in their life. So to use a food analogy, those who identify as male only like pizza, those who identify as female only like tacos, I don’t really care but eat pizza because that’s what I’ve been fed all my life. Non-binary really likes both pizza and tacos and couldn’t imagine having to only eat one or the other. Going by my many Enby friends, and my friends’ kids who identify as Enby, this all checks out. I appreciate the term “gender-fluid” quite a bit, as it really evokes for me the notion of swaying depending on the situation. Sometimes their attraction/romantic inclinations are to one gender, sometimes the other, but it all just depends on what feels right. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/12 "2022-09-02T18:21:16Z")
At risk of being another fish flopping about and wondering what it is like to drown, I have long wondered if it is more bodily dysphoria or societal gender roles that are being rejected by non-conforming gender types. I think that the answer I have come to is that it varies from person to person, so there is no _one_ answer there, but it’s still something that I think about. For instance, and as an admittedly weak example, if it were “acceptable” for a AMAB to show up to work wearing makeup and wearing a dress, would that be enough to satisfy, or at least mitigate, the feelings for some of being in the wrong body? ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/13 "2022-09-02T18:27:15Z")
> [@veryfrank](#): > > Going by my many Enby friends, and my friends’ kids who identify as Enby, this all checks out. Any particular model, or all three? ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/14 "2022-09-02T18:28:58Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Any particular model, or all three? All three and more. A wide spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/15 "2022-09-02T18:31:48Z")
I’ll see if I can convince my sister to sign up for the Dope and do an AMA. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/16 "2022-09-02T18:33:48Z")
Comedian Eddie Izzard is genderfluid, and AFAIK has always done standup in a dress and makeup. She\* also appears in acting roles as a man (or “boy mode” as she says). I am assuming but I don’t know for sure, but Izzard has had no hormone therapy or gender-affirming surgery. Like @ekedolphin’s sister, she seems to take on whichever gender she is feeling at the moment, and it’s possibly tied literally to the role that’s being played that day. [\*Izzard recently started using she/her pronouns.](https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/01/07/eddie-izzard-she-her-pronouns-lorraine-kelly/) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/17 "2022-09-02T18:35:50Z")
Binder is what I suspected. Can someone explain **Enby**? I can’t even guess. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/18 "2022-09-02T18:36:29Z")
Non-Binary, N-B, enby. One of my favorite Izzard lines, back when she used male pronouns was something like – “People say I’m wearing women’s clothes. No, they’re not women’s clothes, they’re my clothes. I bought them.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/19 "2022-09-02T18:39:13Z")
Do we have any good figures for what percentage of the population reports as non-binary? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2022, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826/20 "2022-09-02T18:50:21Z")
I was very disappointed when Tom Baker was only joking when he said Izzard would be the next Doctor. Izzard would make a great Doctor! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/help-me-understand-non-binary-gender/970826.md?page=2)